That argument is retarded.

The conditions that were present...yeah that's unproven

All existence cannot self create. You cannot be your own father

Prove to me from an accredited source, then.

Not just your dusty book.

Therefore everything in existence must be from somewhere or something

So God has a superior?

And infinitely so?

That would not make sense because then God's "god" for lack of another term, would have to have a creator and so on

Okay, so the same logic applies to us.

It can't.

It can.

Because something must have caused it's existence

Something must have caused god?

No, because that would be illogical, as I just explained

I don't get your point.

God, as we understand the concept, must be outside of the normal "rules" of the universe

If God can happen spontaneously why can't we?

Okay, so Rag I work within the rules of this universe.

If you don't, then fly.

First argument for God: logical existence. Nothing in existence came into being by self-creation, life or nonlife. Nothing can create itself because it does not exist in the first place to create itself. This is fact and is accepted by scientists of every religious belief or lack of.

Therefore only something outside of the "laws" of the universe can create everything, and that entity, being outside of the laws of the universe, can be uncreated. In fact that is the only logical way for that to work.

Second argument for God: historical phenomenon. It is a documented historical fact and accepted by the vast majority of historicans of every religious belief or lack of, that Jesus actually existed. It is also equally accepted that the Roman Empire until Emperor Constantine legalized Christianity, violently persecuted Christians with some of the most horrific tortures ever recorded.

The same historical sources for these events tell us the majority of what we know about classical civilization and to discount them would have the same merit as saying the Roman Empire actually didn't exist.

I never said Jesus didn't exist.

I'm not done.

By 325 AD, the empire included seven million living Christians. Two million had been killed for their religion from the time of Jesus until then.

Christian, Muslim, and even Jewish tradition holds that Jesus and his followers performed all sorts of public miracles.

Roman pagans and Jews never denied any miracles.

The Babylonian Talmud actually says he practiced sorcery.

According to the religious narrative, a lot of people actually saw these things happen.

According to history, undeniable fact, and the written accounts of the Romans themselves, Christians were tortured to death in that era for their beliefs. A significant number of the people who claimed to have actually seen the miracles.

The Jewish historian, Josephus, actually admits that the miracles really happened. Keep in mind, he was a Jew. Not a Christian. Never converted.

He also wrote about the resurrection. He was in fact a Pharisee, the sect that had Jesus killed.

Josephus' writings are considered reliable by all historians.

The Ebionite Jews believed Jesus was a mere prophet like any other prophet in the Old Testament, but did not deny his miracles.

We cannot deny the non-Christian accounts of Jesus' life and miracles, and the slaughter of Christians, unless we are also willing to deny all the other history written down by the same people. Including the 1st Jewish Revolt according to Josephus, whose accounts have since been substantiated by archaeology.

The law of Rome, and the writings of their leaders, correspondence with each other etc was that accused Christians be given an opportunity to renounce Christianity, and sacrifice to the Roman gods, for which they would receive a pardon and go about their lives as normal.

Over two million refused. People who said they saw the miracles, watched Jesus die, buried him, and saw him alive again.

If you told me you brought someone back to life, even if I was a superstitious person who would believe you, and later I was going to be fed to a lion if I didn't reject you, then I'm rejecting you.

I see