Looking up at the discussion of meritocracy and feminism being incompatible is like saying apples and alternators are incompatible. They have nothing inherently to do with each other.

Then again, I suppose that depends on what you define as meritocracy and feminism

100 years ago women in the US did not universally have the right to vote

Guaranteeing that right to women as well as men was a feminist action.

Is that incompatible with merit?

@Beeman they are unless they have had their civil right revoked as part of the criminal justice system

That's an issue with the selective service laws

But not an issue that women are at fault for

@JustTom, I don't argue that. But there are gradations of feminism.

Let's back up here. @JustTom, can we start by agreeing that the 19th amendment was a good thing?

@Beemann , I suspect if you were to poll women in the US you'd find a majority would be willing to ditch the selective service.

So does the 19th amendment preclude decisions being made on merit?

My point is that 100 years ago suffrage was the epitome of feminism.

Yet suffrage has nothing against merit based decision making.

@Beemann man, as a veteran myself I actually would advocate for women to be part of it.

But I'd be fine to end it, if that was the will of the people. My point is that the selective service need not be discriminatory.

It is a starting point, Tom. If we couldn't agree on the 19th Amendment there's be no point in further discussion. I think in the end we'll be pretty close to agreeing, but I wanted to make sure we at least could agree that men and women as political entities and sovereign individuals had the same innate worth.

So, next up. Do you believe that women should have equal access to the public school system? Again, it's been only in the last 100 years that this has been true consistently.

We do, Tom. I just want to make sure we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Yes, discrimination is now happening both ways, which has been quite the surprise to some people.

That doesn't make it right

Oh, you mean there's a 10th Amendment, @Grenade123 ?

You'd never know it

If you ever want to see how trucks can be driven through loopholes, just watch the traffic flying past the interstate commerce clause

No evidence of such

So back to feminism and meritocracy.

So we agree women should be able to vote and attend public school. Do we agree that they should have equal access to university programs and the professions?

All these things have been flaming feminist causes within the past 100 years

I never said equal representation. I said equal access.

Personally, I think applications should be given numbers and cleansed of race and sex identifiers. Then decisions get made by committees that are blinded to that data.

There are feminists and there are feminists, sir

No surprise I'm a woman. I'm college educated and a professional with board certification and a license to practice in several states. I'm kinda attached to my achievements but they were all based on merit. My tests were the same as the boys and I rocked them.

I'm glad I had the opportunity to achieve this

100 years ago, I might not have

So to the feminists of days past, I raise a glass

I served

50 years ago, I would not have been able to except as a nurse in some sidelines fakeshit service

Just remember, women were derided for seeking equal rights throughout history

The bullshit women had to endure in the military is still very fresh

I've been called that, too

I spoke at a Rainbow Keynote Address for a major US university in 2011 and was derided by the students for questioning whether Stonewall brought the changes for GLBT folks in the 1970's and 80's or whether it was grassroot peaceful movements and good ol' fashioned politicking

I should say I was the keynote speaker for the GLBT graduation

I was never asked back to my alma mater after that

😕

Sounds painful

list?

Oh, that list

I still say GLBT

I guess I'm a luddite

Hey, I like guys too!

It's under the heading of the good Dr Franklin. "We hang together or hang separately."

I can give you a clear answer

I actually teach GLBT medicine, including trans health care.

@JustTom, I think the standards should be the same regardless of sex or race.

I bet you that there is a women who can meet whatever enough men can meet to fill a unit

@JustTom , I won't speak that broadly. I will just say the standards should be the same. That said, I think the standards should be appropriate for the needs of a particular duty.

Sex, gender, and gender expression are three different things

Sexual orientation is a fourth

Is @Jasse having fun trolling or do you mean it

@JustTom , then you are denying the military some kick ass trauma surgeons

What do you mean by mentally ill? I know a lot of boys who have ADD and do rather well in the Army and Marine Corp.

@JustTom , so you don't believe special forces should have higher standards? What about people as they age? You mean a 45 yo bird colonel should meet the same standards as a boot ensign?

Yeah, I agree with equal based on the job a person is filling

@Jasse, why do you say this?

@Beemann , what questions do you have about trans? As far as the definitions, we're trying to figure it out ourselves.

The standards should be appropriate for the job and to ensure enough recruits are found to fill the billets.

I am pretty sure whatever bar you set that you can find women who can meet the same bar unless you set it so high you won't get enough men to fill the billets.

Also, I'll be blunt, even for special forces there are things a woman can do that a man just can't. Namely, infiltrate as a woman and be able to pass inspection as one.

My wife and I had our replacement two. :p

@JustTom - Fair enough. Special forces are a different breed. The last thing I would ever want would be for a team to fail and have losses because they weren't composed of the best sons (and daughters) of bitches this country can produce

But there are plenty of jobs in the military women rock at. Pilots. Ship captains. It's cool to see Heinlein finally borne out on those. 😃

Oh, I've had those

Like I said, I'm not welcome at my alma mater anymore

I'm not gay enough

@Grenade123 , so true.

It was that which actually got me discharged. Had a heart issue. Was discharged because I could no longer be certain to handle damage control if our ship got hit.

Agreed

Navy believes everyone can be called upon to participate in damage control. Even a medical officer. I can't argue - that attitude won us WII.

Yeah *wistful sigh*

https://www.history.navy.mil/research/library/oral-histories/wwii/navy-flight-surgeon-on-uss-franklin.html

Okay, back to trans. What would you say about a person who goes all the way - surgery to have a vagina and very female vulva. A decade later is happily playing in a big city orchestra?

Or a lawyer? Or a doctor?

Is that mental illness?

I know all three

What is it preventing a person from doing? What is the disability?

@Grenade123 , I've heard that, too.

I'm board certified in psychiatry. I'm listening. 😃

Exactly, @Grenade123 .

Probably 1/4 of the enlisted military has ADD.

@Jasse , I'm not pushing anything on anyone

I'm a hospital administrator

I deal with medications. I'm not a shrink. :p

Diabetes Mellitus is a trait that is useful

It's still a disease

Same with sickle cell anemia. Very useful trait to have...if you get malaria.

Diabetes is life enhancing if you have long fasts

That's why Somoans have it so much

They selected for it so they could do long stretches without food as they went from island to island

Disease =/= bad