the USSR had starvation and this is recorded

you cant deny there was mass starvation

ok, so this says there is no correlation between ethnicity and famine

there was still a famine

Holodomor was real

and it was because of a failed USSR policy

dont try to defend the USSR because it was a shit regime

there are reasons for that

because they stole everyone's grain who wasnt collectivised and killed them

grain confiscation was a thing

ill find it

this is along the same lines as justifying the holocaust

or trying to trivialise it

"kulak sabotage:

here is grain confiscation during the russian civil war

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prodrazvyorstka

here is where they introduced forced quotas and shit

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_grain_procurement_crisis_of_1928

in 1928

what is wrong with wikipedia

they have sources there you know

you can find it on other stuff too

so you refuse to believe that the holodomir was the result of failed soviet policy

you even said the USSR wasnt socialist or whatever

do you support them or not

has there ever been a famine like the Holodomor in the US?

so did the holodomor happen or not according to you?

lemme guess it was the kulaks

what strawman is there cmon?

do you think it was or wasnt?

why do you think it happened?

so you think it was the kulaks

anyway we're getting into ad hominems here and i havent even insulted anyone

neither am i

lmfao

this doesnt even matter

being english or whatever doesnt matter

what does matter tho

ok so how many do you think died in the holodomor

we got like 4.5 to 6 million

its estimates vary

but its in the millions

link doesnt work for me

we havent even got onto Mao yet

the great chinese famine is much better recorded

we have UN population figures

the Great Leap forward even stopped world population growth

lemme find it

in mao's famine?

also they had grain fines and confiscation

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.POP.TOTL?locations=CN

anyway we got one here from the world bank

now he is gonna say this is unreliable so there are others

this doesnt show the full famine btw

collective agriculture certainly didnt lead to lower deaths in china

they subsidised areas that would've been loyal to them

famine didnt hit the cities

in the ussr too

they took the food to the cities,

lets not say that the cities produced more or whatever

lemme find it

anyway we got it documented

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

anyway reliable history source you can see they rationed food for urban areas

well the source you just gave me

even admits that it was carried out in derror

terror*

it says that the cause of famine was due to kulak persecution and bad leadership

well, tell me where the analysis is

what am i supposed to get out of it that isnt to do with it being due to failed soviet policy

soviet policy failed, it isnt good to try and defend it, you even said yourself they didnt have true socialism or whatever

ok so now we're getting into ad . hominems, come on point out what i missed

if its so obvious you can point it out

i honestly want to see what i missed there and how the holodomor isnt to blame on failed policy

i will show some quotes from that and see what you think

can you show a quote from there,

ok lets see what it has to say

seizing of grain

nah

there's more

i've only had this for a few . minutes im reading through it

weather wasnt bad throughout the whole period

russia has had droughts

if the new technology was such an issue, they didnt have famines before the period

im not saying life was good back then, but

they forced collectivisation and industrialisation which led to this management crisis

they attempted to massively boost production

6 million people later

did you say you wanted tribalism or something

what is your ideology

anyway i have to go anyway, cya all

lets be real a lot of socialists use that argument too

i believe true capitalism has been tried

well what we have now is arguibly more capitalist than a few decades ago

due to the 1980s and neoliberalism

i dont necessarily support neoliberalism anyway

the thing with neoliberalism is that they take it too far