Hello

People don't realize when women were organizing for the right to vote in many countries outside the US a large part of the male population also could not vote.

and women's case for the right to vote was usually made by denigrating working class men ("why should a drunk, wife beating, coal miner be allowed to vote and not a cultured lady such as myself")

I mean, beauty standards mostly come from culture anyway. There's no reason we can't change them. The idea that attraction is some purely biological thing is... not really founded in any science.

So yes, shame people for having unrealistic standards, IMO

Yeah, but it seems like people are more upset about unnecessary bullying? Small penis jokes, fat jokes, jokes about height.

It's more than just attraction for dating or sex.

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

Yeah, that exists. It's ridiculous.

Yeah, actually I had that same thought recently. Have any of you seen the movie Dumplin'?

So without spoiling anything let's just say the movie is basically a fat acceptance movie.

and the fat girl gets this hot buff guy

which, IDK, just felt like fat woman wish fulfillment to me

hahaha, yeah. That is true

My friend likes to hateshare Tess Holliday posts on Instagram

I will say her BF isn't really hot or buff

but I guess that's the difference in what is actually attainable if you're fat compared with what you might fantasize about.

IDK, is height really that big a thing? I mean I know it is for some women but..... it doesn't seem like all or most women are that obsessed with height. I mean, just basing this off being a gay man with female friends.

It's not unusual for women to date men about the same height or tall women with shorter men, it seems like to me.

Yeah, makes sense.

I will say that no one really seems very happy with dating. Both women and men seem to be complaining about the others standards and feel frustrated.

Yeah, and most interactions on the apps are short term. People ghost quickly, etc.

Yeah, and when do you stop? The grass is always greener.

Yeah, definitely true

Speaking of debate, do any of you post on /r/femradebates ?

Same, it's kind of difficult to engage with heavily.

Of course not.

If feminists have such a hard time condemning Lorena, they shouldn't be surprised people view their movement as hateful toward men.

That is true.

Well, the mods are feminists. They claim they have to come down hard on MRAs to "balance" things due to a perceived lack of feminist perspective. The feminist posters are generally pretty strident and not really open to conceding anything.

Pretty much

It's the same for any of these attempts to bring feminists and MRAs or non feminists into some kind of dialogue. Feminists quickly dominate the conversation, object to the terms of debate as soon as something comes up they don't want to discuss

Also, what incentive is there for a feminist to debate anything? As they see it there's nothing to debate about feminism, it's already perfect and irrefutable. Maybe there can be debates within feminism (about trans women, etc.) but that's it.

Pretty much

Actually some feminists admit this.

I was listening to Angela Nagle on a podcast. She admitted that feminists generally are not willing to debate anymore. There was that famous debate with Norman Mailer that is generally seen as making feminists look good. She lamented the fact that feminists aren't willing to engage in that kind of debate anymore. She said privately when she brings it up with other feminists they say they admit they don't feel confident enough in their knowledge and don't want to wind up looking stupid.

Yeah , it is haha.

Yeah, I mean I usually just say like

I've provided a source. If you doubt the source prove it false. Especially since they have not backed up any of their statements with any sources at all typically.

Like the default is supposed to be: women are most oppressed in every way, shape, or form. Any deviation from that requires ironclad statistics from feminist approved sources.

Anyone who has spent any time working on these things knows it doesn't work that way. Social sciences, public policy, etc. are all guided by conflicting "facts" brought to light by various interest groups.

Feminism also has a few decades worth of dominance in academia to make it seem more correct.

I can't see any other channels. I am not a bot.