So how long do you give before this is screengrabbed on twitter?

I suspect a lot of SJW's would join your link from twitter just to report back on the evilness

I give it a month 😉

I thought that was the experiment

For the record, I don't think invite only is the way to go, probably just end up with an echo chamber

well can we get right to chatting or is there already a topic planned ?

I would like opinions on whether SA has a center (seems we have far left and far right), who would you say represents the center either as a party or public figure

@Jerm they definitely have influence, the question is whether it is unhealthy. There seem to be a handful of organisations publishing fact based "thought leadership" pieces. One would imagine it is wise to let these pieces influence policy or not.

Maybe political parties don't do a good enough job of publishing the thinking that goes into their policy making... too much time selling the policy

*scratch the or not*

@Robzombie I trust no-one, but at least they present facts that can be checked

I like them, but they definitely have a bias

time travellers guide ?

I think the IRR are transparent though

just have an agenda it seems

I don't think Shelley Garland helped with that perception (although I loved it)

@Jerm have you been deplatformed completely or just have a lot of cartoons declined?

context was added later - that was a quote from one of the people at the land hearings

not ANC position

yeah, I think the race IQ thing would be a quick way to get deplatformed :-p

@Jerm whats the story behind the beef with you and zapiro?

@Jerm I saw that today, I was wondering where it all started. You origin story if you will.

@Jerm to climb in on the Trump debate. I have a few mates in US some who voted for him and some who didn't. This is a conversation I have had with the ones who voted for him several times. What strikes me is how prevalent identity politics is everywhere in the world.

Trump on balance can't be described as a good person, but because of the bloody nose he gave the left people will defend the indefensible.

His attitude towards women is poor. The amount of woman voters he attracted doesn't change that. The ANC's attitude towards to poor is bad, and they still get the majority of the poor vote.

The MSM definitely overplays his fumbles, but there is no doubt that he used the zero tolerance policy at the border as a negotiating startegy... In my book that is really crappy.

If you took it from a US standpoint, he has played up divisions in society in order to consolidate power. Exactly what EFF and ANC do on this side. In my book that is really crappy.

Sites that log the honesty of leaders (that existed before Trump), show that he is far less honest than previous leaders (that in my book is crappy).

I don't know why people have to take this all or nothing approach to politics... they aren't sports teams, we can agree with some aspects and concede that other aspects are poor.

I also don't get this Trump / Clinton ongoing comparison. Election was ages ago... He should now be judged on his own merit

and if she won, then she should have been

But, here are the stats :

https://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/

https://www.politifact.com/personalities/hillary-clinton/

either way, republicans didn't have to put trump up as a candidate, so this false comparison to Hillary gets old... There were some decent conservative candidates early in the primaries but Trumps playground strategy worked

Trump is their Zuma

doesnt matter what he does, supporters will defend

well thats your call to make.... but if evidence that contradicts your viewpoint makes you double down on your existing view point then I would suggest that no evidence will ever be enough

all I can say (anecdotally) was that a republican friend sent me this site after obama was elected to show how much he was lying

and on single items I have not encountered clearly biased findings

these graphs are the scores of investigated claims

fair enough - it is possible that they choose not to investigate democrat lies, but you can search the site and see if your favourites are there

in my experience they are balanced

I am not trying to be rude (sorry if it comes off that way)

https://www.poynter.org/news/politifact-biased-content-analysis-says-no

@Jerm I mentioned specific things which I think are relevant. Put simply :
- He is more dishonest than most
- He is willing to increase human suffering in order to make political gains (might not be unique to him, but his
moves seem more arb.
- He is deliberately divisive

I think these are relevant, and these qualities can be witnessed without looking through the lense of MSM

@Jerm Thats fine... you can be wrong if you want 😃

@Jerm whoah.... I gave the reasons why I dont like Trump

not the reasons why I like / dislike Obama

it doesn't have to matter to you for it to matter

Trust is something that matters to markets... and leadership

his dishonesty just hasn't played out there

yup

@Jerm well thats not true

you cant have your own facts

https://www.history.com/news/north-korea-nuclear-deal-bill-clinton-agreed-framework

I agree that he is not as useless as the media portray him

but I need to trust a leader

trust is a legimate business requirement

Trumps dishonesty hasnt spilled over into the market.... YET

no reason to believe it wont

you sound like the Ramaphoria okes

based on the data we have to make that decision

yes

market speculation

or trading

like most economists do

how is that relevant though

kasich could have been the president

no

is that a problem?

you dismiss data as biased

nope, that was one point... out of many

main thrust of why I say he is a bad leader is because he is untrustworthy and deliberately divisive

based on evidence

okay, so you would say Trump is not divisive and no more dishonest than any other leader?

of course it is subjective thats what an opinion is, that doesnt make it something not rooted in evidence though

just facts less important to you than me

you asked the question mate

fair enough... that was my opinion, but I thought the rest of my point explained why I have that opinion

trustworthiness can be proved

his divisiveness can be proved

@Jerm it is hillarious that you do exactly what you accuse the left of

not deliberately to shore up power

he was divisive on policy

nothing... I didn't realise that I would have to be so specific in everything I said here. The implication was that deliberate divisiveness is what I have an issue with

I do not think it is sustainable

in the long term, and feeds into identity politics

@Jerm awesome that you outgrew that naivety

So trolling is your criteria for good leadership

yup we are going to differ on that one

fantastic is not?

thats just a feeling

well if good or bad leadership can't be defined then what is the point?

do you feel the same when the EFF says it when the media pans them @freeplasma_africa

@Jerm I didnt say it did? This is a discussion forum about politics and identity politics

hard to discuss opinions without venturing one

@Jerm all I did was say why I thought trump was a bad leader. An opinion which I gave reasons for.

i think it was more framed as why I dont like him

why do you ask questions you dont want to hear answers too?

or do you just want people to echo your opinions?

Jerm : Why dont you like trump

ME: Because XYZ

Jerm : No one cares

fact - supported by data..... he lies more than other politicians... a lot more

honesty indicates to me how someone will conduct business and deal with the power that office gives you. Zuma is a great example. His dishonesty along with a mobilised supporter base that would defend anything he did laid the path for unprecedented state capture. Based on what we have experienced in this country I am weary of leaders who exhibit these brazen levels of dishonesty and are able to unite large portions of the population by being deliberately divisive towards the rest.