Messages from @Tom_Servo (Discord ID: 477396918889218049)

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Tom_Servo 2018-08-10 08:45:26 [Nothing Left #pushback]

Tom_Servo 2018-08-10 08:48:38 [Nothing Left #pushback]

So how long do you give before this is screengrabbed on twitter?

Tom_Servo 2018-08-10 08:51:39 [Nothing Left #pushback]

I suspect a lot of SJW's would join your link from twitter just to report back on the evilness

Tom_Servo 2018-08-10 08:52:08 [Nothing Left #pushback]

I give it a month 😉

Tom_Servo 2018-08-10 08:53:12 [Nothing Left #pushback]

I thought that was the experiment

Tom_Servo 2018-08-10 08:53:53 [Nothing Left #pushback]

For the record, I don't think invite only is the way to go, probably just end up with an echo chamber

Tom_Servo 2018-08-10 09:00:03 [Nothing Left #pushback]

well can we get right to chatting or is there already a topic planned ?

Tom_Servo 2018-08-10 09:01:50 [Nothing Left #pushback]

I would like opinions on whether SA has a center (seems we have far left and far right), who would you say represents the center either as a party or public figure

Tom_Servo 2018-08-10 09:07:31 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Jerm they definitely have influence, the question is whether it is unhealthy. There seem to be a handful of organisations publishing fact based "thought leadership" pieces. One would imagine it is wise to let these pieces influence policy or not.

Maybe political parties don't do a good enough job of publishing the thinking that goes into their policy making... too much time selling the policy

Tom_Servo 2018-08-10 09:07:55 [Nothing Left #pushback]

*scratch the or not*

Tom_Servo 2018-08-10 09:09:48 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Robzombie I trust no-one, but at least they present facts that can be checked

Tom_Servo 2018-08-10 09:10:06 [Nothing Left #pushback]

I like them, but they definitely have a bias

Tom_Servo 2018-08-10 09:13:49 [Nothing Left #pushback]

time travellers guide ?

Tom_Servo 2018-08-10 09:14:33 [Nothing Left #pushback]

I think the IRR are transparent though

Tom_Servo 2018-08-10 09:14:39 [Nothing Left #pushback]

just have an agenda it seems

Tom_Servo 2018-08-10 09:14:59 [Nothing Left #pushback]

I don't think Shelley Garland helped with that perception (although I loved it)

Tom_Servo 2018-08-10 09:35:01 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Jerm have you been deplatformed completely or just have a lot of cartoons declined?

Tom_Servo 2018-08-10 09:36:51 [Nothing Left #pushback]

context was added later - that was a quote from one of the people at the land hearings

Tom_Servo 2018-08-10 09:36:55 [Nothing Left #pushback]

not ANC position

Tom_Servo 2018-08-10 09:39:48 [Nothing Left #pushback]

yeah, I think the race IQ thing would be a quick way to get deplatformed :-p

Tom_Servo 2018-08-10 11:59:10 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Jerm whats the story behind the beef with you and zapiro?

Tom_Servo 2018-08-10 13:19:45 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Jerm I saw that today, I was wondering where it all started. You origin story if you will.

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 12:18:53 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Jerm to climb in on the Trump debate. I have a few mates in US some who voted for him and some who didn't. This is a conversation I have had with the ones who voted for him several times. What strikes me is how prevalent identity politics is everywhere in the world.

Trump on balance can't be described as a good person, but because of the bloody nose he gave the left people will defend the indefensible.

His attitude towards women is poor. The amount of woman voters he attracted doesn't change that. The ANC's attitude towards to poor is bad, and they still get the majority of the poor vote.

The MSM definitely overplays his fumbles, but there is no doubt that he used the zero tolerance policy at the border as a negotiating startegy... In my book that is really crappy.

If you took it from a US standpoint, he has played up divisions in society in order to consolidate power. Exactly what EFF and ANC do on this side. In my book that is really crappy.

Sites that log the honesty of leaders (that existed before Trump), show that he is far less honest than previous leaders (that in my book is crappy).

I don't know why people have to take this all or nothing approach to politics... they aren't sports teams, we can agree with some aspects and concede that other aspects are poor.

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 12:24:00 [Nothing Left #pushback]

I also don't get this Trump / Clinton ongoing comparison. Election was ages ago... He should now be judged on his own merit

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 12:24:06 [Nothing Left #pushback]

and if she won, then she should have been

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 12:25:47 [Nothing Left #pushback]

But, here are the stats :

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 12:28:22 [Nothing Left #pushback]

either way, republicans didn't have to put trump up as a candidate, so this false comparison to Hillary gets old... There were some decent conservative candidates early in the primaries but Trumps playground strategy worked

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 12:29:40 [Nothing Left #pushback]

Trump is their Zuma

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 12:29:48 [Nothing Left #pushback]

doesnt matter what he does, supporters will defend

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 12:35:25 [Nothing Left #pushback]

well thats your call to make.... but if evidence that contradicts your viewpoint makes you double down on your existing view point then I would suggest that no evidence will ever be enough

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 12:36:00 [Nothing Left #pushback]

all I can say (anecdotally) was that a republican friend sent me this site after obama was elected to show how much he was lying

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 12:36:17 [Nothing Left #pushback]

and on single items I have not encountered clearly biased findings

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 12:36:38 [Nothing Left #pushback]

these graphs are the scores of investigated claims

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 12:37:12 [Nothing Left #pushback]

fair enough - it is possible that they choose not to investigate democrat lies, but you can search the site and see if your favourites are there

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 12:37:19 [Nothing Left #pushback]

in my experience they are balanced

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 12:38:09 [Nothing Left #pushback]

I am not trying to be rude (sorry if it comes off that way)

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:23:56 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Jerm I mentioned specific things which I think are relevant. Put simply :
- He is more dishonest than most
- He is willing to increase human suffering in order to make political gains (might not be unique to him, but his
moves seem more arb.
- He is deliberately divisive

I think these are relevant, and these qualities can be witnessed without looking through the lense of MSM

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:24:40 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Jerm Thats fine... you can be wrong if you want 😃

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:25:32 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Jerm whoah.... I gave the reasons why I dont like Trump

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:25:44 [Nothing Left #pushback]

not the reasons why I like / dislike Obama

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:26:43 [Nothing Left #pushback]

it doesn't have to matter to you for it to matter

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:27:33 [Nothing Left #pushback]

Trust is something that matters to markets... and leadership

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:28:00 [Nothing Left #pushback]

his dishonesty just hasn't played out there

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:28:29 [Nothing Left #pushback]

yup

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:29:50 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Jerm well thats not true

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:29:58 [Nothing Left #pushback]

you cant have your own facts

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:30:44 [Nothing Left #pushback]

I agree that he is not as useless as the media portray him

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:31:14 [Nothing Left #pushback]

but I need to trust a leader

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:31:46 [Nothing Left #pushback]

trust is a legimate business requirement

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:32:02 [Nothing Left #pushback]

Trumps dishonesty hasnt spilled over into the market.... YET

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:32:09 [Nothing Left #pushback]

no reason to believe it wont

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:32:20 [Nothing Left #pushback]

you sound like the Ramaphoria okes

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:32:48 [Nothing Left #pushback]

based on the data we have to make that decision

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:32:49 [Nothing Left #pushback]

yes

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:32:52 [Nothing Left #pushback]

market speculation

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:32:55 [Nothing Left #pushback]

or trading

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:33:11 [Nothing Left #pushback]

like most economists do

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:33:34 [Nothing Left #pushback]

how is that relevant though

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:33:39 [Nothing Left #pushback]

kasich could have been the president

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:34:43 [Nothing Left #pushback]

no

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:34:51 [Nothing Left #pushback]

is that a problem?

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:35:43 [Nothing Left #pushback]

you dismiss data as biased

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:36:19 [Nothing Left #pushback]

nope, that was one point... out of many

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:37:12 [Nothing Left #pushback]

main thrust of why I say he is a bad leader is because he is untrustworthy and deliberately divisive

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:37:35 [Nothing Left #pushback]

based on evidence

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:38:02 [Nothing Left #pushback]

okay, so you would say Trump is not divisive and no more dishonest than any other leader?

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:39:08 [Nothing Left #pushback]

of course it is subjective thats what an opinion is, that doesnt make it something not rooted in evidence though

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:39:16 [Nothing Left #pushback]

just facts less important to you than me

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:39:38 [Nothing Left #pushback]

you asked the question mate

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:40:45 [Nothing Left #pushback]

fair enough... that was my opinion, but I thought the rest of my point explained why I have that opinion

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:40:56 [Nothing Left #pushback]

trustworthiness can be proved

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:41:04 [Nothing Left #pushback]

his divisiveness can be proved

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:43:15 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Jerm it is hillarious that you do exactly what you accuse the left of

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:44:07 [Nothing Left #pushback]

not deliberately to shore up power

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:44:35 [Nothing Left #pushback]

he was divisive on policy

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:45:39 [Nothing Left #pushback]

nothing... I didn't realise that I would have to be so specific in everything I said here. The implication was that deliberate divisiveness is what I have an issue with

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:45:43 [Nothing Left #pushback]

I do not think it is sustainable

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:45:53 [Nothing Left #pushback]

in the long term, and feeds into identity politics

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:46:19 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Jerm awesome that you outgrew that naivety

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:47:57 [Nothing Left #pushback]

So trolling is your criteria for good leadership

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:48:08 [Nothing Left #pushback]

yup we are going to differ on that one

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:48:40 [Nothing Left #pushback]

fantastic is not?

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:48:53 [Nothing Left #pushback]

thats just a feeling

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:49:19 [Nothing Left #pushback]

well if good or bad leadership can't be defined then what is the point?

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:50:18 [Nothing Left #pushback]

do you feel the same when the EFF says it when the media pans them @freeplasma_africa

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:50:37 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Jerm I didnt say it did? This is a discussion forum about politics and identity politics

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:50:52 [Nothing Left #pushback]

hard to discuss opinions without venturing one

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:52:16 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Jerm all I did was say why I thought trump was a bad leader. An opinion which I gave reasons for.

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:52:29 [Nothing Left #pushback]

i think it was more framed as why I dont like him

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:52:47 [Nothing Left #pushback]

why do you ask questions you dont want to hear answers too?

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:52:56 [Nothing Left #pushback]

or do you just want people to echo your opinions?

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:53:08 [Nothing Left #pushback]

Jerm : Why dont you like trump

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:53:16 [Nothing Left #pushback]

ME: Because XYZ

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:53:22 [Nothing Left #pushback]

Jerm : No one cares

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 13:54:18 [Nothing Left #pushback]

fact - supported by data..... he lies more than other politicians... a lot more

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:14:16 [Nothing Left #pushback]

honesty indicates to me how someone will conduct business and deal with the power that office gives you. Zuma is a great example. His dishonesty along with a mobilised supporter base that would defend anything he did laid the path for unprecedented state capture. Based on what we have experienced in this country I am weary of leaders who exhibit these brazen levels of dishonesty and are able to unite large portions of the population by being deliberately divisive towards the rest.

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:14:51 [Nothing Left #pushback]

it takes time to empty koffers... I am not saying Trump will or is doing that, but what he the character traits he has exhibited makes me think he is more likely to

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:15:36 [Nothing Left #pushback]

sigh

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:15:52 [Nothing Left #pushback]

he is a level of magnitide different to other politicians

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:16:01 [Nothing Left #pushback]

that is fact based

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:16:48 [Nothing Left #pushback]

we can get into that economic data, but it would be best to look at it after 4 to 5 years

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:16:54 [Nothing Left #pushback]

zumas first 3 didnt look so bad either

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:17:39 [Nothing Left #pushback]

i dont trust any president

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:17:45 [Nothing Left #pushback]

or politician

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:18:07 [Nothing Left #pushback]

would you agree that Zuma's corruption was on another level to Mbeki's corruption?

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:18:13 [Nothing Left #pushback]

yet they were both corrupt

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:18:44 [Nothing Left #pushback]

your argument is like saying, well they are all corrupt so we can just except the ridiculous turbo level corruption then

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:20:09 [Nothing Left #pushback]

accept not except

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:22:05 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Jerm please show the numbers on the right

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:22:10 [Nothing Left #pushback]

it was just 2009

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:22:17 [Nothing Left #pushback]

the rest were fairly stable

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:22:40 [Nothing Left #pushback]

between 2.3 and 3.5 most of the way

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:23:08 [Nothing Left #pushback]

ag come on... you cant say massive and then remove figures

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:24:38 [Nothing Left #pushback]

is anyone going to expand on context

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:24:55 [Nothing Left #pushback]

or are you just going to pretend that that was a direct and immediate result of zumas election?

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:25:21 [Nothing Left #pushback]

there is no point in discussing if you are going to actively ignore facts because they dont support your position

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:25:39 [Nothing Left #pushback]

you dont have to guess

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:25:41 [Nothing Left #pushback]

there is data

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:25:56 [Nothing Left #pushback]

which I know you love

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:26:03 [Nothing Left #pushback]

why do choose to ignore this data?

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:27:49 [Nothing Left #pushback]

to drift from this.....

This is the problem, with world politics at the moment... Being unable to concede that Trumps crazy levels of dishonesty, could be a risk to business is a good example of identity politics.

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:28:06 [Nothing Left #pushback]

if we concede one point we feel we have to concede them all

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:28:53 [Nothing Left #pushback]

economic policies are too left leaning at the moment, some weird SJW stuff going on in the world, but this planting a flag in the ground and defending everything is the real danger

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:28:56 [Nothing Left #pushback]

the center is dead

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:29:46 [Nothing Left #pushback]

he did a lot to kill it, but 2 years is like a fart in the wind

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:32:24 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Jerm fair enough. I will give you that. Although, I am not implying that Trump would do something as crazy as land grabs.... I do think he is capable of a state capture type project

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:33:02 [Nothing Left #pushback]

and when some of his supporters where "I would rather be Russian then Democrat" shirts, I am reminded of a lot of the ANC memebers outside court for zuma

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:33:08 [Nothing Left #pushback]

wear not where

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:33:53 [Nothing Left #pushback]

that would be a long term project - 6 years if that is his plan (and that is admittedly very speculative, but it is why trust is a big issue for me on leadership)

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:34:09 [Nothing Left #pushback]

by that time it is too late, and we all suffer if that economy gets hollowed out

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:34:42 [Nothing Left #pushback]

again... not suggesting he is doing it.... just saying that he is probably the most likely candidate the US has had for a long time

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:34:50 [Nothing Left #pushback]

(although Cheney bush folk were cunning)

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:35:05 [Nothing Left #pushback]

NEVER trust a man who doesnt drink

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:35:11 [Nothing Left #pushback]

fact

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:36:01 [Nothing Left #pushback]

to drift once more... please indulge me

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:37:42 [Nothing Left #pushback]

why do you think reps and dems end up landing in the same place on unrelated social issues?

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:38:11 [Nothing Left #pushback]

ie... death penalty, abortion, guns, immigration, marijuana

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:38:37 [Nothing Left #pushback]

surely some people who support immigration reform think there should be more gun control and legal marijuana

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:38:58 [Nothing Left #pushback]

are we all so neatly configured to fit in these boxes - or are we just so easily taken in by properganda

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:39:01 [Nothing Left #pushback]

propeganda

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:45:58 [Nothing Left #pushback]

My last comment for the day...

I am not an anti-trumper, I dont have this madness the media has about him.

But on balance, I dont personally think he is going to be good for the US. (I also dont think he is wrong about everything). Economy may do well for a bit, but ultimately the more isolationist they become the more they will struggle. And the social schism he is exploiting and widening, could result a real stuff up for them (they could end up like SA in the social cohesion stakes).

Tom_Servo 2018-08-13 14:46:05 [Nothing Left #pushback]

later folks

Tom_Servo 2018-08-14 12:03:30 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Jerm no sweat

Tom_Servo 2018-08-15 13:03:30 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@AcidOverride Do you think we are at a point where war is inevitable, or do you think cool heads can still prevail?

Second question, how do you think landowners would do in a war?

Tom_Servo 2018-08-15 13:08:40 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Robzombie Doesn't really answer it at all actually... but I think you are prob right in what you do say

Tom_Servo 2018-08-15 13:12:41 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Roovdwalt It's hard to see a war result go any way other than to those who control the army here... I know our army isn't the greatest force anymore, but I reckon landowners are simply outgunned (forget the numbers).

Doubt much support would come from abroad. We aren't that strategically important anymore.

Tom_Servo 2018-08-15 13:16:40 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Roovdwalt Maybe... but China is more interested in us than the increasingly isolationist West (economically). Any western power getting involved would be doing so without a real economic upside, plus China would prob side with govt... so there is that to consider

Tom_Servo 2018-08-15 13:17:39 [Nothing Left #pushback]

we could be the future balkans

Tom_Servo 2018-08-15 13:17:44 [Nothing Left #pushback]

war wise

Tom_Servo 2018-08-15 13:21:16 [Nothing Left #pushback]

50 bucks says this chat on war makes it into Adriaan's article.

Tom_Servo 2018-08-15 13:42:49 [Nothing Left #pushback]

Someone should Pieter that comments like this are bound to make farmers with more than 120k hectares of land panic

he should be more responsible in what he says

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 08:19:24 [Nothing Left #pushback]

I will kick off today with same question as day 1.... Anyone have thoughts on which personalities or parties represent the center in SA or global politics?

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 08:20:21 [Nothing Left #pushback]

it counts 50% of your year mark

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 10:27:59 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Roovdwalt There has to be a center... We might just not recognise it if we call anyone to the left of us a communist and anyone to the right of us a nazi.

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 10:29:42 [Nothing Left #pushback]

ME : I disagree with BEE
THE LEFT : You alt-right white supremist
ME : I don't think Trump is good for the US
THE RIGHT : You liberal snowflake

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 10:31:16 [Nothing Left #pushback]

so the question remains, who represents an oke like me... my views are not homogenous with either the right or the left... I agree with each on some issues, and disagree on others.

I can't be the only one - I feel like it is an untapped market politically

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 10:48:21 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Jerm Centarist does not mean 50/50. It's weird that you think that

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 10:50:09 [Nothing Left #pushback]

I think being in the middle is a fair description... I think another would be compromising

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 10:50:45 [Nothing Left #pushback]

it seems as though the far left and far right seem to agree on everything... regardless of how unrelated those issues might be

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 10:52:18 [Nothing Left #pushback]

Its not about the label as it is about the representation

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 10:52:53 [Nothing Left #pushback]

maybe I see the center as the grey area

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 10:53:09 [Nothing Left #pushback]

where a lot of issues can often fall

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 10:53:42 [Nothing Left #pushback]

but because outrage generates more activity, truly exploring the grey area is not rewarded

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 10:56:37 [Nothing Left #pushback]

I would agree that we overcomplicate some issues, but most are geniunely complicated (if we are doing a truthful examination of the issue)

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 10:56:53 [Nothing Left #pushback]

lets use the Alex Jones issue as an example

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 10:57:00 [Nothing Left #pushback]

I am all for free market

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 10:57:58 [Nothing Left #pushback]

but when companies have grown to the scale of FB, Twitter etc.... then they end up having unfettered power that can no longer really be regulated by the free market

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 10:58:21 [Nothing Left #pushback]

Dont get me wrong Alex Jones is a warped douchebag

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 10:58:46 [Nothing Left #pushback]

but should private companies have that kind of power...

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:00:37 [Nothing Left #pushback]

same thing happened to the Guptas here

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:00:46 [Nothing Left #pushback]

how did all the banks find the same thing at the same time

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:01:22 [Nothing Left #pushback]

that was an orchestrated move... and we are all fine with it because it serves our purpose.... but pvt companies often need to be regulated

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:02:24 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Roovdwalt isn't collusion or monopoly the inevitable outcome of successful capitalism.

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:02:26 [Nothing Left #pushback]

?

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:03:00 [Nothing Left #pushback]

hence regulations start coming into play?

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:05:29 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Jerm In the technological world that no longer holds true

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:05:57 [Nothing Left #pushback]

huge amounts of capital investment have made it impossible to disrupt the existing "production" means

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:06:05 [Nothing Left #pushback]

facebook

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:06:21 [Nothing Left #pushback]

not here

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:06:49 [Nothing Left #pushback]

how

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:08:12 [Nothing Left #pushback]

IPO

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:08:18 [Nothing Left #pushback]

free market

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:09:53 [Nothing Left #pushback]

I havent polled every investor

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:10:02 [Nothing Left #pushback]

but I assume they saw value in the company

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:10:21 [Nothing Left #pushback]

correct

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:11:42 [Nothing Left #pushback]

so Alex Jones should do that?

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:11:49 [Nothing Left #pushback]

is that a realistic comment?

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:12:01 [Nothing Left #pushback]

this is the grey area I am talking about

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:12:14 [Nothing Left #pushback]

free market can result in some unintended consequences

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:12:25 [Nothing Left #pushback]

in this case a situation where free speech is regulated by corporations

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:12:49 [Nothing Left #pushback]

dont get me wrong, still our best system by miles

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:13:32 [Nothing Left #pushback]

so you are okay with censorship if it is corporate sponsored?

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:14:16 [Nothing Left #pushback]

this is one of those grey areas

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:15:06 [Nothing Left #pushback]

a supremely successful company, that becomes a vital part of freedom of expression should not be bound by their own terms of service... should be bound by consitutional definitions of free speech

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:15:23 [Nothing Left #pushback]

it is kind of anti free market

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:15:28 [Nothing Left #pushback]

but it is pro free speech

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:15:32 [Nothing Left #pushback]

grey area

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:15:49 [Nothing Left #pushback]

and there are tons of these... but it seems political discourse is more about winning an argument than exploring a solution

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:17:11 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Gonzo no company is good or bad... it is a machine. The market can attach a value to morality and in that sense the market is "good" or "Bad" .

But people are generally dense, that is why we dont write a constitution by referendum

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:17:52 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Jerm Not saying I have the answer... but it is something I have been wrestling with, because I do not think it is simple

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:18:45 [Nothing Left #pushback]

and I feel certain corporations are starting to have power beyond manufacturing and supplying goods. They are shaping society, and that is a problem

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:18:59 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Jerm how did govt make the FB / Jones issue complicated

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:20:47 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Jerm not following how this relates to FB issue

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:22:43 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Roovdwalt Jones has been banned off all platforms now.. What options does he have?

Again he is a cuckoo nutcase and I disagree with him on literally every single thing he says... but if he has not broken the law (not terms of service), then why should he be deplatformed

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:23:46 [Nothing Left #pushback]

didnt they have their serverrs shut down by microsoft

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:23:53 [Nothing Left #pushback]

in the wake of this

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:24:02 [Nothing Left #pushback]

if they host jones

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:25:20 [Nothing Left #pushback]

I think you might feel differently if you were deplatformed by FB, twitter etc...

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:25:41 [Nothing Left #pushback]

and again, I am not saying free market sucks... just saying that some things are complicated

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:26:00 [Nothing Left #pushback]

its is only simple if you willfully choose to ignore the complications

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:30:55 [Nothing Left #pushback]

Like I said - I dont have the answer, but I can say that the power to silence held by these companies is not healthy

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:31:06 [Nothing Left #pushback]

you are blind if you dont see that

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:31:50 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Jerm I agree with you on the tobacco.... although I will include the caveat that if smokers are shown to put more of a burden on state funded healthcare, then they should contribute more toward that healthcare

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:36:05 [Nothing Left #pushback]

your arguments are really very similar to arguments I have with communists.... Communism presents the following problem. Yes, but this is not pure communism that problem wouldn't exist in pure communism.

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:36:50 [Nothing Left #pushback]

if we can both agree that something is problematic, why can't we discuss all possibilities of addressing it

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:37:03 [Nothing Left #pushback]

even if one of those thoughts might be in conflict with an existing belief?

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:38:14 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Jerm you are missing my point

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:38:34 [Nothing Left #pushback]

you defend the free market using the same logic that communists use to defend communism

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:38:41 [Nothing Left #pushback]

- in this particular case

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:39:13 [Nothing Left #pushback]

I dont know why we got to healthcare frankly... I am raising the issue of FB and free speech.

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:39:33 [Nothing Left #pushback]

your argument is that FB is not really operating in a free market

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:39:41 [Nothing Left #pushback]

so the problem wouldnt exist if we just did it right

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:41:38 [Nothing Left #pushback]

more like... you have 90% of all the guitars.... someone else has the other 10% but none of them can be tuned properly. You refuse to sell me one of your guitars because you dont like the music I will play

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:42:11 [Nothing Left #pushback]

or we can skip analogies and look at the actual case I put forward

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:42:20 [Nothing Left #pushback]

it is easy enough to understand without a metaphor

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:43:05 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Gonzo This is a valid concern... and I am not dismissing it... as I said, I dont know what the solution is, but I think the solution lies outside of a pure free market solution

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:44:56 [Nothing Left #pushback]

"pure"

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:45:06 [Nothing Left #pushback]

I dont think we have had a "pure" free market anywhere

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:45:16 [Nothing Left #pushback]

sometimes this has worked out well, and othertimes badly

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:45:45 [Nothing Left #pushback]

but I think it is naive to believe that a pure free market can realistically exist. (a lovely ideal, but not realistic)

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:47:36 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Jerm so facebook shouldnt have the freedom to have a political view

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:47:39 [Nothing Left #pushback]

?

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:47:58 [Nothing Left #pushback]

how dare you limit the market this way 😬

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:48:28 [Nothing Left #pushback]

I am being faecitious

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:48:55 [Nothing Left #pushback]

but if shareholders dont agree with how they spend money politically they could disinvest

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:48:57 [Nothing Left #pushback]

or use gab

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:49:18 [Nothing Left #pushback]

are you even slightly seeing my point here?

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:49:31 [Nothing Left #pushback]

nothing exists in a vacuum

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:49:42 [Nothing Left #pushback]

theory is just theory and reality is sometimes messier

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:50:00 [Nothing Left #pushback]

doesnt mean we should throw the theory out though

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:51:15 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Jerm nope cathy newman... I am concerned about the power Facebook has over free speech and am not convinced that free market theory will address this adequately

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:51:49 [Nothing Left #pushback]

@Jerm sorry unneccessarily rude - being said with a smile on my face

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:54:57 [Nothing Left #pushback]

if a printer refused to print your newspaper despite your willingness to pay then this would be comparable

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:55:14 [Nothing Left #pushback]

your house is not vital to public discourse

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:55:16 [Nothing Left #pushback]

so no problem

Tom_Servo 2018-08-16 11:56:08 [Nothing Left #pushback]

if printers had their own TOS, and refused to publish the Rapport because they were carrying one of your cartoons

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