it takes time to empty koffers... I am not saying Trump will or is doing that, but what he the character traits he has exhibited makes me think he is more likely to

sigh

he is a level of magnitide different to other politicians

that is fact based

we can get into that economic data, but it would be best to look at it after 4 to 5 years

zumas first 3 didnt look so bad either

i dont trust any president

or politician

would you agree that Zuma's corruption was on another level to Mbeki's corruption?

yet they were both corrupt

your argument is like saying, well they are all corrupt so we can just except the ridiculous turbo level corruption then

accept not except

@Jerm please show the numbers on the right

it was just 2009

the rest were fairly stable

between 2.3 and 3.5 most of the way

ag come on... you cant say massive and then remove figures

is anyone going to expand on context

or are you just going to pretend that that was a direct and immediate result of zumas election?

there is no point in discussing if you are going to actively ignore facts because they dont support your position

you dont have to guess

there is data

which I know you love

why do choose to ignore this data?

to drift from this.....

This is the problem, with world politics at the moment... Being unable to concede that Trumps crazy levels of dishonesty, could be a risk to business is a good example of identity politics.

if we concede one point we feel we have to concede them all

economic policies are too left leaning at the moment, some weird SJW stuff going on in the world, but this planting a flag in the ground and defending everything is the real danger

the center is dead

he did a lot to kill it, but 2 years is like a fart in the wind

@Jerm fair enough. I will give you that. Although, I am not implying that Trump would do something as crazy as land grabs.... I do think he is capable of a state capture type project

and when some of his supporters where "I would rather be Russian then Democrat" shirts, I am reminded of a lot of the ANC memebers outside court for zuma

wear not where

that would be a long term project - 6 years if that is his plan (and that is admittedly very speculative, but it is why trust is a big issue for me on leadership)

by that time it is too late, and we all suffer if that economy gets hollowed out

again... not suggesting he is doing it.... just saying that he is probably the most likely candidate the US has had for a long time

(although Cheney bush folk were cunning)

NEVER trust a man who doesnt drink

fact

to drift once more... please indulge me

why do you think reps and dems end up landing in the same place on unrelated social issues?

ie... death penalty, abortion, guns, immigration, marijuana

surely some people who support immigration reform think there should be more gun control and legal marijuana

are we all so neatly configured to fit in these boxes - or are we just so easily taken in by properganda

propeganda

My last comment for the day...

I am not an anti-trumper, I dont have this madness the media has about him.

But on balance, I dont personally think he is going to be good for the US. (I also dont think he is wrong about everything). Economy may do well for a bit, but ultimately the more isolationist they become the more they will struggle. And the social schism he is exploiting and widening, could result a real stuff up for them (they could end up like SA in the social cohesion stakes).

later folks

@Jerm no sweat

@AcidOverride Do you think we are at a point where war is inevitable, or do you think cool heads can still prevail?

Second question, how do you think landowners would do in a war?

@Robzombie Doesn't really answer it at all actually... but I think you are prob right in what you do say

@Roovdwalt It's hard to see a war result go any way other than to those who control the army here... I know our army isn't the greatest force anymore, but I reckon landowners are simply outgunned (forget the numbers).

Doubt much support would come from abroad. We aren't that strategically important anymore.

@Roovdwalt Maybe... but China is more interested in us than the increasingly isolationist West (economically). Any western power getting involved would be doing so without a real economic upside, plus China would prob side with govt... so there is that to consider

we could be the future balkans

war wise

50 bucks says this chat on war makes it into Adriaan's article.

Someone should Pieter that comments like this are bound to make farmers with more than 120k hectares of land panic

he should be more responsible in what he says

I will kick off today with same question as day 1.... Anyone have thoughts on which personalities or parties represent the center in SA or global politics?

it counts 50% of your year mark

@Roovdwalt There has to be a center... We might just not recognise it if we call anyone to the left of us a communist and anyone to the right of us a nazi.

ME : I disagree with BEE
THE LEFT : You alt-right white supremist
ME : I don't think Trump is good for the US
THE RIGHT : You liberal snowflake

so the question remains, who represents an oke like me... my views are not homogenous with either the right or the left... I agree with each on some issues, and disagree on others.

I can't be the only one - I feel like it is an untapped market politically

@Jerm Centarist does not mean 50/50. It's weird that you think that

I think being in the middle is a fair description... I think another would be compromising

it seems as though the far left and far right seem to agree on everything... regardless of how unrelated those issues might be

Its not about the label as it is about the representation

maybe I see the center as the grey area

where a lot of issues can often fall

but because outrage generates more activity, truly exploring the grey area is not rewarded

I would agree that we overcomplicate some issues, but most are geniunely complicated (if we are doing a truthful examination of the issue)

lets use the Alex Jones issue as an example

I am all for free market

but when companies have grown to the scale of FB, Twitter etc.... then they end up having unfettered power that can no longer really be regulated by the free market

Dont get me wrong Alex Jones is a warped douchebag

but should private companies have that kind of power...

same thing happened to the Guptas here

how did all the banks find the same thing at the same time

that was an orchestrated move... and we are all fine with it because it serves our purpose.... but pvt companies often need to be regulated

@Roovdwalt isn't collusion or monopoly the inevitable outcome of successful capitalism.

?

hence regulations start coming into play?

@Jerm In the technological world that no longer holds true

huge amounts of capital investment have made it impossible to disrupt the existing "production" means

facebook

not here

how

IPO

free market

I havent polled every investor

but I assume they saw value in the company

correct

so Alex Jones should do that?

is that a realistic comment?

this is the grey area I am talking about

free market can result in some unintended consequences

in this case a situation where free speech is regulated by corporations

dont get me wrong, still our best system by miles

so you are okay with censorship if it is corporate sponsored?

this is one of those grey areas

a supremely successful company, that becomes a vital part of freedom of expression should not be bound by their own terms of service... should be bound by consitutional definitions of free speech

it is kind of anti free market

but it is pro free speech