And no, I don't give a rats left bollock if you have a problem with it XP

Haha, of course, yiff in hell and all that XP

Because they're adorable

I wasn't raped as a kid, but I did become attracted to cartoon characters in my childhood. It is definitely weird, I find it rather funny and bizarre, but here we are. Anyway, just a quick point, I've been on the Internet since around 1999 and I suspect most people here have been online for over a decade. What can you find on it? Porn of every kind you can imagine. The Internet has lifted the veil on human sexuality and everybody likes something "weird" that they wouldn't bring up in polite conversation. A furry is someone who can like a different subject/object in that whole range of the madness that is sex, which is non human a thro characters that don't exist. It's no more degenerate than porn in general is. I've been around enough to know, and drawn enough porn for enough customers, to have a more mature and empathetic perspective on sexuality. So I know that claims of degeneracy come from a place of insecurity, to prop up the pretense that oneself is not THAT bad, oh no, I'm one of the pure people. There's nothing intimidating or threatening about that to me, I think it's adorable XP.

Hey you guys brought it up, don't be crying about it now XP

Haha, okay, clearly it has upset you, I'll not talk about it again XP

I don't mind them, it's adorable XP

@Fitzydog understandable, but furries are mostly shy nerds who love to dress up so they can feel comfortable and hug people, be silly outdoors and such. They're harmless XP.

Most of the ones who costume, who wear fursuits, really just want to make other people laugh and have fun. They can stop being awkward nerds for a bit. I don't wear the fursuits personally, i just do the drawing side of things

@Fitzydog it does actually, when suiters go out in public they get a lot of friendly attention from the public.

@Antiboom don't get me wrong, there's a lot of fucking creeps in it. But same goes for wider society. Are gamers more likely to be scumbags? Nerds get a lot of flak don't they.

Just saying it might not be wise to paint a whole interest group with a few hundred thousand members based on the actions of a batshit minority. I mean feminists love doing that don't they.

So kinda ironic seeing the same shit here haha

Zoophiles you mean, they fuck their pets

Haha yeah it's weird as hell. A bit like a whole city going batshit over the results of a sports game.

Point is, everything is incomprehensible if you're not interested in it

It isn't normie no, it's weird like I've said several times

Weirder but a lot nicer to people

I have no idea about fnaf, that mystifies even me

Don't have a problem with it though, I think it's funny

And some of the art is fantastic

Emphasis on some

You know, the irony with me is that I actually don't watch porn. I don't have an interest in it 99.99% of the time. So I get a real kick out of the irony of being a porn artist.

When I say some art is fantastic I mean it as an artist. The technical skill of it. Because there are some seriously talented furry artists

@A Random Crusader I don't jerk off to it, that's what I meant by watch, no need to be pedantic XP

I've been on antidepressants since before puberty, so there's a reason my sexuality is basically fucked... For want of a better word haha

It wasn't child abuse, I've had clinical depression, the permanent kind, for 24 years

I don't mind if you don't believe me, I just like being open with people XP

If you're not interested then fine XP

Haha, it's so cute how you pretend to speak for more people than yourself, placing yourself in the cool kids club, arbiters of acceptability XP

Apparently! Look, stop giving me attention if you don't want me to have any, I don't care XP

Right, so you're enjoying giving me attention but saying I'm craving attention. Interesting logic you got there skeletor

It's not contradictory in itself but it is making an assumption without evidence, that I just want attention. There's no way I could say I'm not is there? It's circular.

Depression, clinical depression, is often connected to trauma yes. There seems to be an aspect of heritability too. Nobody understands it really, it's still a mystery.

There's no need to make a big deal about masturbation, like it needs to trouble or torment people as a subject. It's just a wank. As natural as taking a piss.

I'd say there is a problem with claiming morals are absolute, it goes against that quote at least. If they were transcendent and permanent they'd not be bent in every direction, according to the will of each individual. Moral values require an agreement among a majority to be sustainable, but they're not handed down from some magical place. It is more to do with the limitations on what civilisations are practically possible. That's why moral systems are constantly in flux, the debate and discussion never stops. Good thing too or we'd still be sacrificing people on altars.

Saying morals are transcendent is just a way to sneak jesus into a conversation

You listed secular humanism along with all societies major evils dude.

When it is secular humanism that civilised the fucking western world

Every inch of moral progress for centuries has had to move against the objections of religious permanence. That is the reality of it.

What was the argument FOR it?

One doesn't find objections to slavery in scripture

I have read the bible from cover to cover, twice. And I still read it now and then

Christians were indeed abolitionists. Eventually. Because they were Christian? If that were so they'd not have endorsed it for as long as they did. The British ended slavery. Not Christianity. British society.

It does, where is the anti slavery in the scripture?

The bible endorses slavery throughout. Therefore it is religiously condoned. If the abolitionists were motivated from their beliefs they didn't get that moral decision from their religious scripture but through a process of reason.

Deciding that all men were equal

Yeah

No I said that moral progress moved against religion, and that secular humanism has civilised the west. Secular humanism is a result of that pushing against religion for centuries

Anyway, to put it simply, if morals came from on high then there'd be no progression, no direction to progress towards because the answers were there from the very start. Id find it extremely silly to suggest that there has been literally no moral progress ever in any civilisation. And equally silly to ignore the fact that religion has always or nearly always opposed changes in moral values. There's no getting past that.

@Fitzydog whatever mystical shit anyone claims morals have come from other than a mix of biological imperative and human culture.

@Fitzydog what? We're talking about claims that morals are divine, they come from God, they are transcendent. Ie not man made. I say they are man made, which is why man alters them all the time.

@Fitzydog they are. Either morals are permanent and handed down to man or they are not permanent but flexible, changeable, determined by people. They are mutually exclusive.

@Deleted User right, which is why tyrannies exist.

Like you said before with the quote Paul, reality is reality. The fact that man does change moral values proves they aren't transcendent

There is a sea of philosophy out there, secular philosophy, which underpins moral reasoning, which has moved society throughout the ages. That is how we can reason things are right or wrong and find common agreement. When enough people agree we can have a society. It's that simple. But because morals aren't God given or permanent, but depend on the individual, there are people from every range of beliefs you can imagine. There will always be people who don't give a shit about having slaves, who will rape and murder. Where is their permanent morality? Doesn't exist. If we only took our lessons from religion then society would stagnate, like Islam for the past 700 bloody years.

Doesn't matter which religion it is

That's because morality isn't objective.

It is subjective, if it was objective it would remain the same forever

@Fitzydog where is this ubiquity?

@Fitzydog I've no idea what the fuck you're on about now lol.

Yeah, safety, like the good old days of burning heretics

@Fitzydog only by our standards

Still do the shit in qatar

@Fitzydog they are according to our moral values. And our moral values have progressed as a result of scientific knowledge combining and informing philosophical enquiry. Not religion, but branching away from it. Islam has stayed in place with its scripture, no worse than bloody Christianity was hundreds of years ago. But because western civilisation allowed moral values to change and be informed by reason, argument and knowledge, it has progressed. I won't say it is objectively superior to Islam but I will say it is objectively better at promoting human happiness and freedom, better by centuries.

@Fitzydog because there is a particular foundational principle of Islam that differs with Christianity. Islam sees this world as irrelevant, human life is only about preparation for the true life in paradise. So you do as you're told by God and then you get to where you're going. This world will perish in the end at armageddon anyway so fuck it. Christianity has this too, only not as strict. That is the wiggle room. But again, it isn't Christianity as a faith which has progressed, it is society that has, and Christianity has fought against it every step of the way, but it was tamed. So now even the Catholic Church accepts evolution etc.

We have no fucking right to forget all the people who have been slaughtered and destroyed by religions opposition to human progress and development. No right to forget it kept people enslaved and fucking illiterate for generation after generation, dependant upon religious elites.

To have what we have now, the education we have now, and to give the credit for it to a fucking bronze age book is an absolute joke. And that is the one thing about Jordan Peterson that pisses me the everloving fuck off.

It's historical reality

Yes. Really.

No, I've stated a simple fact. The religious scriptures have barely changed at all, yet western civilisation has. How? If the bible is the gateway to the perfect, absolute morality, then why has it changed? There is NOTHING in Christianity from its inception which resembles our modern moral values. Society has progressed despite religious texts, not via them. Which is why the texts instruct people to do things that today we consider to be evil.

If morality was transcendent then it would transcend time and place and we objectively know that it does not. Ergo, people produce morals, not God.

There is no way to argue in favour of the position that religion is where morals come from, which is why nobody has made an argument to that effect. Only putting out stupid questions.

@Fitzydog exactly, it was an early attempt, and now we have better.

@Fitzydog how do you figure that, given that we don't follow the bible and haven't done for generations? It's a journal of how we got here? Is it fuck.

You're the one doing that

You said before that maybe everything people do is from god anyway. Lol.

You keep expanding your own position to refer to more and more shit, moving the goalposts at every turn lol

@Deleted User yeah, we stone people to death on the sabbath, we make rapists buy their victims from their dad as compensation.

Yeah, a covenant is cutting your foreskin off because a book claimed a god wants it.

I'm taking the piss

Argue in good faith? You've ignored everything I've bloody said. Not answered a single question I asked.

"do you know what a covenant is?" the fuck is that about?

Yes, a divine agreement.

I know about the reformed covenant with jesus

I already said I've read the bible.

No, it isn't. The covenant with jesus and the entire new testament does not mention the moral progress we've made since the days of burning heretics.

Everything Christians have done has been in the name of christ. With that damn covenant

Didn't say you were. I'm pointing out history, real history.

It all stands on one question. Either we've made moral progress over the past several hundred years or we have not. If we have, that is after the Bible was codified, which means the Bible can't have birthed the changes in morality since its creation. If you think we haven't progressed, I'd love to see that shit be explained.

Of course it did, Im not saying it didnt

My argument isn't that religion has nothing to do with morality it's that it isn't the source of morality.

Anyway, it's past 3am here and I'm tired, gonna have to bow out. I'm a furfag anyway so I'm wrong by default, haha

@Deleted User hahaha I'm not going there, can't be fucked with another lecture about being attention seeking, giving out info nobody wants and I'm a degenerate. Got plenty of that highly intelligent and reasonable bullshit earlier, fankoo verimooch.

I know and I'm not in the mood.

Ffs. I don't know what made me a furry. Born wrong? All I know is I was a little kid watching cartoons and when I saw Tails in AoStH I was besotted. I've liked toony anthro characters since. Certainly wasn't a decision I made or anything, haha.

It's like asking what made me gay.

Fell in love with a man when I was 18, we ended up together for 11 years. Just happened XP.

There is a lot of gay in furry. A lot. I have absolutely no idea why.

I have met and known several female furs yes