"we can't kill people, thats immoral.... just rip them limb from limb until near death, that is the good and god approved way"

The last video in <#463052787970998282> about the communism is the same old everybody in western media is peddling. I'm surprised Tim is falling in to this trap, given his inquisitive record, but it's the same problem with the western surface level politics. I am from Eastern Europe and it's common we look down upon the desire for simplisity in disecting a very complicated issue. I was very young when socialism fell in my country, but the talking points so far have been juvenile. Firstly full disclosure:
1. I do NOT believe socialism and communism is a good idea and believe any similar notion should be condemed
2. People in Eastern Europe do NOT fit western political paradime. Namely - it's usually authoritarian left conservative and liberal right wing.
3. I'm 32. Not an old fart, but not in college

My point is that the claims gulags are impending on the west is hardly realistic. Bussiness is simbiotic with government and gulags are bad for bussiness. A iron authoritarian system as it is in modern day Russia is the worst a socialist system would put in place.
Second point would be the beaten to dead claim that socialism doesn't work financially and has never worked. In reality people look to states with crazed paranoid dictators and military hotheads, as well as multinational symbiotic nation states, with religious and ethnic nations. Those are sad examples, but in fact, socialism (to an extent and by design) has worked financially in SOME Eastern European countries.
The dangers of socialism go way deeper and are way more sinister to the really important parts located higher in Maslow's piramide. A planned economy is effective, but devastating to all but basic food on the table and housing and transportation. Transitioning away from it is nie impossible. 30 years later, my country and many others are still healing the scars from the worst parts of it.
I'm not sure if I'll break any discord channel rules in tagging Tim or any of the admins, but really want to gauge and poke your brains a bit. Why do you think in none of the debates western journalists and pundits never speak to any of the people that have lived through it and lived through the transition of socialism?

What do you mean they do not fit in the western political paradigm? just curious

Conservative is "Left" in Eastern Europe. We've had left leaning politics for decades. People, especially the older generations want the government to take care and regulate life to a good extent. It is even a default expectation for the government to regulate and impose price regulation on certain goods and services (which in my oppinion is insane). Left politics are usually authoritarian in nature (hence, we know their true colors and they're not even bothering to hide it). The right wing is taking a liberal stance, it's small government, pro bussiness and has a very strict hands-off policy to regulating people's lives. It's "new" to Easter Europe politics. Political correctness does not fit either - it's considered herracy by almost everyone on all sides of the spectrum and is not peddled by either the right or the left. - It's a long subject, but hope I covered the basics

It's maybe a bit closer than you might think.

that sounds like most of europe to an extent

What I took the articles presented to be was an endorsement of allowing for Gulags.

i know America is basically far right compared to most of Europe

Really not.

The government doesn't really accurately reflect the people, sad to say.

Western Values generally look at Gulags, Internment Camps, and Concentration Camps with disdain

Even though it's been done in the west on varying occasions.

.... I was really hoping to gauge an insight as to why you would think Western European and North American politics never go and poke around in Eastern Europe, where socialism was (and this is a stretch, but use the term for convenience) financially successful, but culturaly devastating. I wasn't trying to start a debate about Easter European political climate. For us, for the record - Western Europe is far left, USA politics are almost far left.

Ah, sorry.

I think the hard swing right is a result of having lived Communism.

What we're seeing in Western Europe is an erosion of culture to the point where Communism can be put into place.

The funny thing is, though

You've got a lot of people digging on on a right-leaning liberal stance now.

I'm sorry, I'm bringing it back to the west... -_-

I'll be quiet. :/

* sight * Eastern Europe (politically) is currently almost entirely centrist, not right-wing. The left is pathetic and we're not having any of it anymore. This is why you see massive protests in Poland that are nationalistic in nature. Not because they can't wait for the 4th reich goose steps any longer, but because Eastern Europe is desperately trying to prevent something that has ravaged us for decades. The right wing and far right wing have provent to be incompetent and insanely corrupt, all accross the board when it comes to Easter Europe borders. So most of the parties in power in the region are now Center-Right or Center-Left, but all with no exception, lean heavily libertarian, because the slightest hint of aurhoritarian notions leads to tens of thousands out in protest.
I don't blame you, nobody's looking in to East Europe's political climate. But why do you folks believe nobody - journalists, politicians and pundits alike, are not even interested in it and the history in socialism in the region?

and if you're wondering, we're seeing a huge unflux of western ex-pats emigrating to Eastern Europe, compared to previous years. Funnily enough, mostly men, and mostly white....

1) North American politics never go anywhere really outside North America, not normally
2) "Journalists" these days are mostly left leaning, so why would they try and get facts?
3) Still a bit of a bad rep, the countries, not the people.

those are 3 reasons on the top of my head

basically, North Americans, specifically Americans, are lazy

this shouldn't be a big shock

all the more reason to dig a bit in to why it's a bad rep, don't you think?

the Red Scare

most of current parents either where kids during it, or kids of them

most of that area are viewed as still former Soviet Countries, or next to ones, and still not recovered enough to be considered "safe"

so its a "hands off, let them be them and see what happens" kind of deal

Most places outside of close US allies are viewed as having a bad rap

even Italy has a bad rap given its still a bit unstable

well considering that antifa in US and UK are waving soviet flags, Cortez was actually elected shadily and communism and socialism is no longer a dirty word in the media... while poland protests with this: https://i.redditmedia.com/K8q1WiWj5rfy48OCO0zdqb_3hXwKoVLdhjqlFV8Mb_o.jpg?w=960&s=1f9df15235432a3a050b7a1821ba9ec1

where did i say Americans are smart?

lmao

They look at Sweden, and go "we want that", then call it socialism, so people look for socialism, and think its great.

Americans are smart man. What's concerning is the world's culture and vibrancy is in the west and especially the US. I can be smug about knowing stuff Americans don't know, but then I actually see that there's nobody at all looking around and at least being curious. Perhaps just Sargon, and only a bit

I disagree, Americans aren't smart. -_-

we are smart? fuck, the world that dumb?

Besides, I'm not talking about average Americans. There are those that do and they usually buy property and live here now. I'm looking at journalists and people in the actuall bussiness that should be doing it

Most Americans don't even know how their own government works, let alone a form of it like Communism.

Russia and China == communism

but cite Carl Marx? "that sounds nice"

look at the people pushing socialism! These people went to college! they are the "intellectual" class

As was said, those in the business of investigating politics aren't interested in opposing communism

Smart is a very broad term. Jordan B Peterson actually spoke about it on the JRE - people are way more curious and smarted than most give them credit for. I disagree that Americans are not smart. Just hurded in to certain viewpoints, and good on Tim to actually trying to circle around that imo

We've got a problem: Back in the USSR days, they actually initiated a program to turn our education system commie.

It's been admitted to on several accounts.

So these journalists that go to a decent college and get hired

They've had their heads filled with propaganda

And it's only getting worse.

i'd love to travel more, but 2 weeks vacation gets eaten up quickly just trying to stay in touch with fam, yet alone getting a flight overseas on my budget

He's trying to uncuck the left.

it doesn't help that America is like the size of Europe, so go a little easy on not looking outside the world much, we have to go a bit of a waze to find something not American.

(and then we get there and look for mcdonalds)

Grenade, you know the reason for that.

@RyeNorth , the thing about socialism was that it was acutually very effective in healthcare, education, housing, food production and benefits. That's not really a downside of socialism

I've discussed that reason with you before, I believe.

what, reason for which? looking for mcdonalds?

'finding places not american'

idk did we?

50 nations.

The United States and the European Union are remarkably similar.

Except that the US has a direct representative.

yeah i know, which is why its usually a good comparison to do US vs EU not US vs any one EU nation

``federation (fĕdˌə-rāˈshən)►
n. The act of federating, especially a joining together of states into a league or federal union.
n. A league or association formed by federating, especially a government or political body established through federal union.``

Origin of the term 'Federal'

Rye, the US and the EU are vastly different. The EU as an administrative unit is very different than the US. Each individual member states in the EU have little in common - even politically

Not so different.

are you talking about the EU as a federation, or EU member states?

you know, i wonder if that is just the problem, relating back to why North American and Western Europe don't visit Eastern Europe, so much land and stuff to see inside their own areas before even getting to outside that area.

I'm talking about the US as a federation.

Generally, the only thing US member states have in common are a language, generally speaking. Deep down, there are huge differences in culture and heritage.

it's very different Rye - The federal government and judicial branch are centralized and have localized representation. EU nations are sovereign states and EU law relates almost exclusively for trade regulations and fiscal matters.

Political persuasions vary wildly depending on where you're at in the nation.

EU nations are sovereign states, for now.

The EU is a replica of the United States experiment.

the EU will break down mate it will be increasingly bad for bussiness before it could fall in to effect. And if I know any better, once it starts getting bad for bussiness, it's not going forward

The United States was designed as a Union, a Federation, same as the EU

EU is an attempt to make something like the US but with existing sovereign states rather than former colonies

yes, but the US is so much more culturally cohesive than european state countries, I don't even know where to begin. Take it from a EU citizen. It's not fiesable.

It's actually very much for the better that it does collapse.

the EU is secretly just Germany's latest attempt to conquer Europe 😉

As Grenade points out, the EU is based around Nations and not former colonies.

The EU doesn't get direct representatioon in it's government

it probably won't. It is expected to shift back to a trade union.

we'll see how brexit goes, WHENEVER THE FUCK THAT WILL BE

the Brits are screwed. Griffix made a video on brexit a month ago if you guys follow her. She's dutch, very smart.

As an Eastern European I'm inherantly cinical about politics as most of my countrymen. We just learned to apeal to bussiness to force the government to be as libertarian as possible. Regardless of what we end up as a political system, we're no longer seeing left or right, we look at who's most libertarian of them all.

Theresa May is a traitor to Great Britain.

Just putting that out there.

if they go with the Chequers deal, which i don't see how they can get around their leadership, they are fucked

i'm kinda serious that the US should start pulling out troops as a counter.

Hah!

let Europe repeat history

I've been saying for a LONG time that the left/right walls are breaking down.

That what matters is Authoritarian vs. Libertarian

lets watch the Spanish, French, English wars start up again

remind them how "civilized" they really are