#debate (Discord ID: 463068752725016579) in Subverse, page 1
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traps are gay
I am gay for the gay
no images or embedded links are allowed in this chat, fyi
no shit sherlock
traps arnt actually gay, we have scientific study on it now https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ph8Cae07bo
if traps are gay... what are mimics?
Aussie will not be happy about the 2nd rule
yeah how will he respond to the rules loo
he will probably have a problem with the 4th one too
though i dont think spam rules apply in shitpost or memes
rules are mostly there to maintain order
i'm pretty hands off as far as moderation goes
I mean, this isn't dankula's server
dankula moderates a lot?
i never imagined him to do that
it's mostly filled with scat porn
yep i heard of that
it's not anymore
i think there is still a revolutionary feeling within the right still after having gotten trump elected they still feel anti-establishment and as if there side is still backed into a corner by the liberals and progressives who are trying to undermine their win. the background of the civil war is older than charlettesvile which is why theres vast groups of people who appeal to an emotional ideology on both sides who wont accept any change within politics. this makes the right stronger in resistance to the left than if the left was coming up after years of complacency by the right and then having their anti-establishment revolution.
So lots of squabble about Cassio growing up in yorktown heights moving there when 5 instead of the bronx, gong to ivy league schools, etc.. it all just being another smoke and mirrors candidate, thoughts?
news to me but im not surprized, the progressives are bourgeoisie have had been bourgeoisie for 20 years
do you think the establishment left might start turing on the progressives to supress a fracture within the dnc?
wasent there something about cassio promoting a beauty company or something?
she said something like where about she got her nail polish and then ended up they sold out
but not sure she did it on purpose
sure but it does point to whos listening to her
people who buy things?
but yeah I don't think socialists realize how much capitalism enables
go ask people of Venezuela if they can go out and buy products like that
The Americans who promote socialism are probably wealthy enough such that they don't experience deprivation.
they are mostly from middle class familys
i like how theres more debate in news than here 😛
Insert photo of Bernie driving his Lexus here.
bernie is upper class now
but any politician is
what are you talkinga bout
hes the 1%
i think that the progressives beleive what they say but dont actually represent the people they say they stand for
not that i think the liberals do either
an honest liberal is someone who stands for the middle class 😛
How do you help the middle class?
depends on if its threatened, a while after the middle class was established they basicly went from defending its existance and the freedoms it should have (which were graciously extended to everyone) is trying to get rid of the middle class by rising themselves up to the upper class at any oppertunity
liberalism is the ideology of the birth of capitalism and the middle class
using democracy to create an elite that the economic system can create rather than the established nobility
then themselves often rising to that elite while keeping the middle class in existance in order to put a boundry between them and the lower class though it also helps that a lot of different industrys developt that rely on a middle class to exist
this is why i tend to think the right is the only side that has groups of people that actually support the lower class and poor. the left has a scattered few but dont have any organization because of the liberal and progressive domination. the right, specificly the new right is mostly people from the bottom and middle of society directing politicians for their own interest while the left pits different groups of people who may or may not have different populations which are disproporationally lower or poor classes against eachother via identity
making more of a wave lately
Thats poorly done hatchet job imo
well it is the daily mail
@JDM_WAAAT It's not so much that the rules are bad, it's that there *are* rules at all.
why should I care
rules exist so discord doesn't nuke this server
"these rules violate my NAP"
You could've at least led with the "I don't care what your opinion is" approach instead of giving us the illusion of the contrary
So I wanted to propose a compromise to satisfy both sides on the denying of cakes for a gay wedding. The bakery must sell cakes to anyone, but can deny creating a cake that he believes would violate his religion. IE: no rainbows or topping with 2 grooms
I'm just saying give me a reason besides "rules are bad"
why does it feel like i keep seeing half a debate here? 😛
@kilo (twitter-imkilo) isn't that literally what we have in reality already?
I'm pretty sure that's actually what Masterpiece Cake Shop was about
From what I'm reading, they never got that far.
`The facts of Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission are simple. Charlie Craig and David Mullins visited the Masterpiece bakery and looked through a photo album of custom-designed cakes. When the owner, Jack Phillips, greeted them, they told him (according to his own testimony) that they “wanted a wedding cake for ‘our wedding.’” Phillips told them that he did not create wedding cakes for same-sex weddings. They left immediately without discussing any details of their proposed wedding cake.`
Yeah, but they didn't get that far
You can't sell simple white cakes for weddings, you see
Wedding cakes have to be customised for the occasion
He could've made a fairly generic wedding cake, they're usually not specifically decorated aside from the topper.
A generic wedding cake. I'm sorry, that sounds like an oxymoron to me.
Wedding cakes aren't generic, they really have to be painstakingly designed
It's takes between 3 to 6 hours
By generic I mean subscribing to the standard designs
Most wedding cakes are not indicative of the genders of the couple save for the topper.
Yeah, but it goes against his religion to make cakes for weddings he disagrees with, so that's a problem too
You know what would have been better? If they just went to a different fucking Baker
Instead it looks like they wanted to have it out
@Deleted User I'm trying to find a way for the gay couple and the Baker to leave happy. "I don't want to do a gay wedding cake, but I will do a generic wedding cake and you do with it what you will" and then they say "no thanks"
anyone wanna debate about gaddafi?
They never got that far though, so we're purely in a hypothetical scenario.
But that's the thing, he doesn't want to accomodate the wedding because it goes against his religion @kilo (twitter-imkilo)
In any manner
It still would've been up to the gay couple to not file a civil rights greivance
@Deleted User I understand, but allowing a business to discriminate on their religion and next a business will refuse to serve black people
And I think a large number of gay couples would've just gone on with their lives and found another shop.
I'm sure that's thing already
A business that refuses to serve black people is actively cutting off business, it may try to do it, but it won't last.
If one business refuses to serve black people, they lose revenue. And, more people refuse to come because the owners are racist. Free market will ensure that the place goes bankrupt
It's the beauty of capitalism
Before the Jim Crow laws, businesses were not interested in discrimination based on race because it harmed their profits.
Sowell's most recent book talks about it at length.
@Deleted User @Rils have neither of you heard of the restaurant that refused to serve black people in 1964, and the supreme court ruled using the "commerce clause" that the federal government had the authority to compel a business to not discriminate because it would affect interstate travel?
Could you be more specific?
I gotta look that up. Maybe it was due to it's location
1964 would've been at the tail end of Jim Crow
As a sidebar, I disagree with that assessment, racial discrimination has nothing to do with interstate commerce and shouldn't be under the purview of the commerce clause.
I'm indian, sorry
I haven't heard about this vague event.
Katzenbach v. McClung?
The restaurant acted specifically to push back against government overreach.
That one, also Heart of Atlanta Hotel vs United States
let it be know the first real debate was actually this server and its new authoritarian ruleset 😛
I kid btw
The commerce clause was intended to keep the Federal government from becoming involved in local commerce, but the courts have stretched it so far that almost everything is interstate commerce and so the Federal government has authority.
Okay, so quick back story from an "old man" about why you no longer see "whites only" signs in the United states , as soon as I get done playing with my dog that seems to be wanting my attention
well the internet kinda made everything interstate commerce
not to mention most transactions are handled via credit card terminals which means most data is proably transfered over state lines
so where do you actually draw the line between local and interstate transaction now?
(this is not an argument one way or another, just bringing up points)
If my business only pays with cash and only accepts cash, would I be exempt?
I would say so, but im no lawyer
im just saying the lines between intrastate and interstate commerce has significally blurred (imo) since the advent of the internet and digital payment technologies
Prepping for a discussion;
race and crime: cultural Vs biological.
(Is the disproportionate representation of crime due to cultural/socioeconomic factors, or is it a biological difference; that blacks are just de-facto more violent?)
(Not gonna mention which side I'm intending to argue, as I want information from all sides.)
As is mentioned in "Theory of Race" by Wilson (1995), the discussion is "mired in an unproductive mix of controversy and silence" - and it's proving difficult to find sources that are up to date and relevant. Any helpful links would be much appreciated, if anyone has any to hand. (@tag me)
Nurture > nature
nurture = nature
morals are taught, not inherited
how we are nurtured effects our genetic growth and our ability to produce offspring, a minor example of that can be found here http://ccf.org/reproductiveresearchcenter/docs/agradoc356.pdf the effect of how you live your life on the life you bring into the world is noticible even on a genetic level given large populations and long scales of time this becomes the nature as culture and envirnments effect selection processes within the species which produces ofspring with different traits than those found outside the group that is breeding most often with itself than any outside group.
_Is this guy asking us to do his research for him_
that would be amusing
would be funny if i somehow got roped into doing that for someone to do a public debate
starting injectin falso info here and there 😃
LMAO no, I've been doing my own research too, just figured this might be a good place to find people who may already have some links to hand which could help me. Of course I'll be going through everything, as well as what I have so far.
my hypothosis is that you cannot simply take an average zygote from any person on earth and render an average person from them. their genetics has some effect on who they will become, as their treatment from conception to atleast the age of 25
longterm i think theres a relationship between genetics and envirnment that ultimately effects the diversion of species
Problem I'm having is the muddied waters - my compatriot keeps bringing up the race:IQ correlation (which he asserts is biological) and then the IQ:crime correlation to support his hypothesis that it's entirely biological.
Also states that race:crime is biological; he asserts this on the basis that on average, blacks have more testosterone and a higher fight-or-flight reflex... but since things like your posture, can chance your testosterone (and other brain chemicals), there's something to be said for a cultural/social reason for this too. Plus none of the studies I have found so far measure across cultures for the same races.
For example, the higher fight-or-flight reflex would be understandable for people who are constantly aware of external threats. #MudHutsVsDoubleGlazing
I mean, my main argument is "why does it matter".
Whether it's biological or cultural, you can't make policy around it.. you shouldn't, for example, make immigration policy that discriminates blacks because they have a higher propensity for violence.. that would be illiberal. But I really wanna drill down into the subject with him. Curiosity is peaked
im not sure how they messure testosterone averages between people but the only way i think there could be established a connection is by messuring the genes responcible for testosterone production because SO many factors go into testosterone levels in your native resting conditions that it can change after a few hours
The only problem I have is, Why are they obsessed with one race? If IQ is the problem, why not focus on high IQ people?
And not just the huawhite race?
My problem is that any result is meaningless realy
their argument is usually that iq and agression are conversely proportionate to eachother
You cant draw any policy based on this research
Because IQ is just a bi-line he's making to support his predetermined conclusion, imo. @shaving
And yeah @zutt , that's exactly what I said above
LOL shaving autocorrect
Like i dont mind them researching this
But you have to judge person based on his character
Yeah; but what's the point.
I'm with you there, but I still wanna have the discussion with him. Not just about why he thinks it's important, but also why he believes it to be true. Just out of curiosity more than anything.
when making national policys your almost always judging people by average traits relitive to group you can file them into
Yes but that is drawn on cultural grounds not racial grounds
As for why is alt right so obsessedwith it is simple
Well, I'm dead centre on this; There's no doubt looking at the figures that blacks commit more violent crime per capita than whites, in most countries. I don't believe it's entirely biological nor entirely cultural (though I think culture probably plays a bigger role; social disorganization theory)
I think it's worth examining the root cause, but as I mentioned in OP, the discussion is kinda taboo in the first place, which I think accounts for the "these kinds of people" arguments gaining traction
If you say that the problems with 3rd world migrants are due to their cultures that implies they can be taught adapt
If you say its natural you can say they are unable to coexist in one nation
And expell them all out
That's true, and both are bad outcomes. But refusing to acknowledge the facts as a problem, is also... problematic.
You know, the people talking about blacks being shot more by police, but ignoring the fact that blacks commit more violent crime (requiring police intervention)
Well its complicated
In this case their skin calour serves as indicator of culture in policeman subconsciousnes
See I don't know if that's necessarily the case. I mean, we all know implicit bias tests are BS, we have no way to measure how much of someone's subconscious is influencing their behaviour or treatment if another.
If you look at an average police encounter with anyone, their attitude of normally based on the context of their reason for being there.
If they're walking down the street, they'll be calmer than if they're responding to an active shooter situation.
I believe these issues will not trouble our species not much longer tho
I think within 50 years programing of newborns genom will become comonplace
And wouldent surprise me if the parent will be able to just choose the looks of their child
More interracial breeding I say
Yeah, it's crazy... I hope it never comes to that.
I'm not even sure I'm on board with genetic modification to eliminate birth defects/medixal conditions.
Hell, im not really a fan of genetic modification of corn, lol.
Corn has been genetically modified for years lol
tacos are the best food.. debate me
You forgot enchiladas.
tacoenchiladas are the best food
the best food is
You realize that ppl were carrying primitive genetic modification for centuries right ?
Sam harris would be proud
just make up new words and win minds
Every single food has been modified lol
Speaking of Harris.. where do you line up on objective vs subjective morality? :p or is that too heavy right now..?
Even fucking bananas
@NotQuiteHuman oh speaking about that. fuck jordan peterson now haha
it depends on the issue
He said some dumb shit with Matt
im tired of him now
Okayyy shiv, Give me an example of something that is objectively moral?
this debate is retarded
like.. i dunno
matt destroyed him i think
I hear noam chomsky established that there is objective morality
Albert Fish killed and ate over 30 children and didn't understand why people had a beef with it... did he just not understand morality? Or was his moral standard different?
@NotQuiteHuman say we are living inside a multiverse with infinate number of possible outcomes and realities
that would make things a bit more tricky. objective may not be universal
in this case
Here's my opinion. Morality changes according to context.
I don't even know how objective or subjective morality can be proven, in any way.. anyone acting "immorally" might have a different moral standard, or they may not understand the objectively true immorality of their actions. Is there even any chance of an consensus?
For example, Killing itself is neither moral or immoral
It is moral or immoral depending on the context
another way of thinking
killing oneself brings a wave of hurt into the universe
Killing an innocent person- immoral.
Killing a rapist in self defense - moral
via connections you made
Even killing a rapist they have a mom
I said *self defense*
so it can be justified but still bringing immoral injustice
@Deleted User I think I see where you're going. Like, putting a dog out it's misery if it's twitching in gmthe road after being hit, is moral. Compared to hitting it with a baseball bat for fun.
by pain and suffering of innocent family
like the butterful effect
I said Self defense, Grayman. What you are saying can be applied to the concept of revenge
The action itself isn't immoral nor moral; rather the intent of the perpertrator
Well, not exactly
I said context, not intent
Or the consequence?
Think about this
If there's a white supremacist walking down the road
he has a shotgun
He sees a black man raping a child in an alley
and shoots the black man
Now, a black man being shot by a white supremacist, is immoral
but, a rapist being killed to defend his victim, is moral
So intent then? Did he shoot him because he as black? Or to defend the rape victim?
Exactly, considerng intent pollutes the context
The context should matter, on it's own
and that's it
Yeah, I see what you're saying
But if people disagree that randomly killing blacks with no reason is immoral, how do you square that with objective morality?
You and I might agree that unprovoked murder is immoral...
Someone else might disagree
Again, context. I think I side with objective morality more
Let's dial it back a notch
A racist man says Nigger on a stream
He says it because he's reading huckleberry Finn
u guys gotta watch that person son vid
Now, if you consider intent, you'd have to impose what *you* think, on that man
Your nuance is showing 🙈
"AI when it runs it doesn't have rules"
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