@devpav Yes, but not race specifically.

Cat, define 'race'.

@devpav skin color pretty much.

lol.

That's not a very developed idea of race.

Human genetic differences run a lot deeper than skin color.

@Grenade123 now that I read it not really.

You're right. Melatonin content in skin rarely causes cultural change.

I can see where a lot of the disagreement came from now.

@devpav so what? What’s your definition of race?

@Grenade123 My point is basically that societies reflect the population genetics of the peoples that develop them.

@Bookworm how is it not a developed view? That’s how race functions in society.

Races are distinct biological lineages.

Even centuries ago, that would have been odd. A man doesn't change race because he works often in the sun.

@devpav yeah, and? Still doesn’t change the fact that racial integration works as long as you have the same cultural values.

@Bookworm not what I meant, but whatever.

You're just posing an extremely hypothetical situation that's irrelevant for explaining how actual biological differences contribute to actual cultural differences.

Much as I'd love to move large racial groups of children into a controlled environment and chart their cultural development over time, I'm told that some people would get upset and start complaining about 'ethics'.

Obstructionists, the lot of them.

@devpav you don’t understand the what you are talking about. You vastly overestimate the influence that racial differences in genetics have in cultural integration.

With the understanding that when you're talking about race, you're talking about skin tone.

it's a very complex system, geography played the leading role in genetic alterations as well as cultural tendencies - theoretically, put each race in identical geography and environment and they would eventually develop into the same mindset

@Bookworm not what I meant. It’s the only incorrect thing I’ve said the whole time.

@Salacious Swanky Cat You're the one using a philosophical thought experiment to vastly overestimate the disconnect between biology and behavior. I'm at least constrained by empirical biology.

@devpav lol. You don’t understand the biology.

So, what do you mean by race, then, Cat?

I'm still waiting for you to invoke biology.

Cat doesn't even have a biological understanding of race. Muh skin color isn't a serious definition.

@Bookworm people of African decent, European decent, native Americans, Asian. All that.

Rather than nitpicking, I'll just assume you're talking about the same distribution of haploid groups into racial and geographical categories used in modern genetic studies.

So are you granting that there's more to biological descent than skin color?

@Bookworm yes

@devpav let me put it this way. You don’t understand what the science is telling you and you don’t understand how behavior operates within a culture.

You haven't spoken to any science at all so far. You're not saying anything at all.

@devpav wrong. I’m just saying that you are overestimating the impact of race. That’s all.

You have no basis for saying that.

Oh my. Work, why did you take me away from all this fun?

And now we have two cats. 🐈

@devpav you haven’t spoken any science either. So what if there are racial differences in average IQ? That doesn’t automatically make mean that racial integration is impossible. In fact, quite the opposite. It means you believe that the issue is with IQ not race. You either don’t understand what the science means or you willfully misinterpret it to justify some idiotic ethnostate philosophy.

Wait, Young Cat, you're saying that you recognize racial differences in IQ?

Not to throw a wrench in the discussion but insofar as morality and genetics I'll throw out the VMAT2 hypothesis and then run back to patient care.

So, you're saying that IQ has no effect on understanding of values, morals and philosophy?

*flees explosion*

@Bookworm Yes. And you just pointed out why race really isn’t the issue. It’s IQ.

Which you said varies according to race.

Or at least allowed it as true for the purposes of this discussion.

Wait, if you're saying that IQ is the issue, then you're saying that IQ *does* have an effect on morals, values and philosophy?

The sheer fact that we can freely mingle genetics is biological proof that race is a social construct. We're human. Everything else is a range of features.

Yes, cat, a range that tends to coalesce common bounds along geographical areas and groups over time.

Natural selection took basic human stock and increased melanin in Sunny areas to reduce melanoma.

@Bookworm yeah. And? That means low IQ people exist in all races. And, like you just said, IQ affects the ability to understand things. Not race. That’s the reason why I generally consider race skin color - *because that’s how it operates in society*.

In low sun areas it selected fir light skin to increase vitamin D production to minimize rickets

But you just said that IQ varies by race.

So, since race has an effect on likely IQ, as you've stated, and since IQ has an effect on culture, as you've stated, race has an effect on culture.

The big question about IQ is not whether it has a genetic component, but rather, whether IQ itself is really the best measure we have. Since IQ tests were designed by academics to measure people like themselves. Which isn't necessarily the best way to run a society.

In areas with malaria, sickle cell is selected because one sickle cell chronosome is protective against the worst of malaria

I would not want a bunch of high IQ nerds running my society as there is no correlation between IQ and honesty, honor, integrity, decency, trustworthiness, or much of anything else.

@Bookworm you still don’t get the point.

I would question whether IQ varies by "race" or social status and the resources someone has to develop healthy when young

It's a topic open for discussion, but Young Cat has put it forward as true, so right now we're reasoning it out as if it was true.

Kids who don't eat well or who are exposed to tobacco or alcohol en utero have IQ issues regardless of "race"

Which makes sense.

@Bookworm my point has been and will remain that racial genetic differences don’t affect racial integration significantly.

Gonna run a few errands in a bit, be back when I can.

Okay, that's a different statement, but let's work on that then.

What do you mean by racial integration?

🤦‍♂️people of different races living in the same community.

Only men? That seems odd.

Why is that even mutually desirable for the groups involved?

@devpav well, not everyone is racist.

That's not an answer.

You have to do a lot better than that if you expect all these distinct groups to willingly share the same space.

Well then, what’s the alternative? More wars and genocide? You have no clue what what you are suggesting. You over estimate the effect that genetic racial differences have and then you use your misinterpretation to endorse policies that ultimately lead to more conflict.

The alternative is groups coexisting peacefully by keeping to their own space.

Segregation? We kinda tried that.

We already have de facto segregation.

It doesn’t work. And integration works and it does fine.

Integration doesn't work.

Integration doesn't even happen.

I think the US military is proof positive for integration

The US military is not real life.

It does and you are proving that you don’t know what you are talking about.

Tell that the osama bin ladin :-p

You're a broken record.

I think the US armed forces are quite real. And quite integrated. And quite kick ass.

Military life is not civilian life. And I don't want civilian life replaced with military life.

@devpav
Sure, when larger groups migrate and stay within their own group even after migrating, sure, integration does not work.
But individuals migrating are often perfectly integrated into their new society

I've worked extremely well in integrated hospitals.

Integration works just fine. It's quite natural. Just leave your prejudices behind and work towards common goals.

There's no such thing as 'perfectly integrated' because you can't completely eradicate people's awareness of their subgroup identity.

@devpav >asserts that biological racial differences prevents effective integration.
>military proves him wrong
>refuses to accept being proved wrong by moving the goal post.

The military doesn't prove anything about integration in real life because it's not real life. I already said I'm not going to live under North Korean social conditions for the sake of so-called integration.

but how come then that the US has worked so very fine and has become even more integrated through time since it started with very culturaly different groups that has continually worked together and built what stands today? Europeans may all share different shades of white but it sure is not the same, not the same culture and not the same mindset etc.

The US has become more divided over time, not more integrated.

The divisions are over ideology not race.

I don't see the ethnical irishmen, swedes and brits dividing themselfs...

The divisions are more deeply correlated with race than ideology.

No. It’s ideology that’s causing the divisions.

You're blind and making generalization if you only see peoples skin as the reason they disagree. There are black people that believe in freedom and individuality, and there are white people that are fucking communists.

God damn race realists are just as low IQ as lefties