Of course?

Yeah

How does this change what I say?

What do you mean?

I don't think we disagree on as much as you think

```I disagree that we have any imperative to establish a state```

Alright

So

Where is this imperative?

In the magisterium

Where?

In the magisterium

lol

Okay, so the magisterium is recorded in the catechism is it not?

No

So the interpretation of the word is recorded by word of mouth only?

No

If your church has a position on this that is cool, my only question would be where this is recorded.

Where in the Catechism would I find this

The magisterium comes from the decree of the church authority. We have papal bulls, ex Cathedra statements, ecumenical councils.

Alright

The Catechism is simply a tool, a good compilation

So within these, where and when does the Church take up it's position that a state *must* be established and what is used to justify this?

Just google the American Heresy

That appears to a broad topic, do you have a specific part of the Catechism that outlines this or a specific council which decided this?

Testem Benevolentiae Nostrae

Thank you

```...society cannot be set up unless the Church lays the foundations and supervises the work...```

https://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13teste.htm

Is this it?

is that infallible @Eoppa

Neither statement is infallible, but yes that's the Encyclical

My quote was from Pope Pius X

As long as I have the right letter I am satisfied

Although XII is my favorite, Pius X was a beast of a Pope, arguably the best in terms of social doctrine

The whole "this is unnatural" or "this is inhumane" thing kind of triggers me. I don't understand why we need to stick to what's "natural" or what's "humane." Progressivism and Traditionalism aside, it's very unnecessary to stick to said natural/humane values, since one of the most important goals of humanity is perfection, and that perfection can be achieved through unnatural or inhumane ways as well. Being perfectly educated, for example, is one value which can be extremely useful, yet it requires unnatural ways in order to be achieved. For example, the use of technology, which is automatically an unnatural sector, can very well help you become perfectly educated, and it can do so ten times quicker than the natural process of learning. What's humane is also the unnecessary Egoism that resides inside of every human being that ever stepped on Earth. I don't see why we shouldn't overcome this humane and natural feeling, since its eradication can be extremely useful, for extremely obvious reasons.
Bumping this back up teeheehee

well if its not infallible why link it?

Wait so that isn't an authoritative position?

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"Progressivism and Traditionalism aside, it's very unnecessary to stick to said natural/humane values, since one of the most important goals of humanity is perfection, and that perfection can be achieved through unnatural or inhumane ways as well."

Huge given assuming one of the most important goals of humanity is perfection... And, to be frank, I don't even know what perfection means. I think its fair to say every human pursues that which they perceive as good, if we define the good as that which is worth pursuing. So to say that one of the most important goals of humanity is perfection is perhaps in no way a radical statement, considering everyone has their own definition for what the unsurpassable ideal might be.