so the ocean, while chaotic, is also somewhat ordered

I don't know that you could really call anything disordered besides a few really niche examples

order is law and predictability

predictability is a whole other concept though I worry about invoking that here.

taken from a wide enough lens, anything can have order to it

fair enough

well not anything

I think non-computable numbers could be considered disordered

as there is no way to produce them

i consider those to be more like

Well, frozen ice typically considered an ordered system. Low entropy. But a puddle from the same ice cube is in chaos. Littld order and high entropy. Perhaps the same thinking could be applied?

indivisible units of information

the indivisible unit is a really hard concept for me to explain

like

@ChaosNatural this is how I think of it, there isn't really an absolute order, or chaos. We it's just a judgement of how far a system is from how people would typically organize things

its a baseline

idk its a concept i cant really put into words very well

so let's step back a bit

we began by saying society is ideally ordered, or rather, the very definition of order. But I think we've kind of deconstructed the idea of order altogether at this point.

Information, at least as it applies to the sciences, can't be destroyed. Much like energy.

the apple from the garden of eden REPRESENTS that concept well

That is to say, there are a number of different ways we can order society.

And I would assert that the 5 precepts don't provide us with an argument for how we *should* organize society

its a fundamental unit of information. much of the rest of science can be broken down, but the base of it is the behavior of the atom

It's just a way that happened to work. Out of many other ways?

sub atomic, behavior isnt understandable

sub atomic behavior is beyond the scope of this conersation.

Oh, like the uncertainty principle?

oh god no

stop typing

let me go back

Alright

I'm saying that if we have any disagreement on society, literally any, that the 5 precepts can't determine who is right and who is wrong.

I'll butt out then and go back to my constitution

an atom is the best example of what i call a fundamental unit of info. that is, the smallest level of information you can break things down to, and still understand whats going on. if you break an atom, you cannot understand what is going on.

so to what Spider is saying now

no please don't bring up atoms is this so far beyond the scope of our disagreement 😑

I am not arguing that NML is a fleshed out set of rules for a society

its a skeleton

it might be a skeleton, but it isn't the skeleton

I can propose a skeleton which contradcits this skeleton, and we'll be left with nothing but our own tastes to reconcile between the two