<:wtf:591182282648190986>

well even so, then you're just relying on them

this value doesn't exist without subjects, whether they're humans or extradimensional hyper creatures

this doesn't establish any sort of objectivity

values require subjects

they're subjective, not objective

Objectivity is free from our personal feelings, that means if there is a being out there that appreciates nature, then it proves that our input is not required, the creator is eternal, so there will always be a being to value nature, because he created it

The creator will also preserve nature himself

And if he wished it he could create other eternal beings that will preserve his creations forever

The creator is a subject.

Objective simply means free from personal opinion, our opinions still dont matter when it comes to nature, if I think it is wrong for oxygen to exist, it will not affect its existence

Even if the creator is a subject, the creator creates reality so he determines what is objectively true or not

no this is no longer objectivity then

objectivity exists without the consideration of a subject

oxygen exists whether we think of it or not

And so does nature

but these values don't exist outside the minds of men or even your creator

But the creator does not even regulate nature at this point and neither do humans, so regardless of what either of us think (humans and the creator)
Nature will continue to exist and regulate itself

Gravity is apart of nature, and its effect are alive regardless if the creator is involved or not

but values aren't like this

So an objective value is a value that is a value regardless of what we think or feel.
If I feel like I can cut down all the trees in the world, it does not change the fact that trees are valuable to the eco system, if I decide to preserve the trees the trees value still remains the same

@Spider Sutravery strong points though

I almost conceded

O_o

The trees are not valuble to the eco system, not really.

We see them as valuble because the ecosystem is made more resilient by those trees, but the eco system doesn't see the trees that way.

The eco system can't see the trees at all.

The ecosystem is made more resilient by those trees, because the trees add value to the ecosystem.
You take the trees away,
then the ecosystem will lose a certain quality of itself, that means that without anyone's opinion of the tree regardless if it hurts or helps, the tree is still a part of the ecosystem,
The same way our right hand is not needed on our body, we can survive without it, but our right hand offers value to our body,
So does a tree.

why is it valuble to make the ecosystem more resilient?

Suppose I come along and I hate the ecosystem, are those trees valuble in my eyes?

Definitely not.

And there is no objective standard through which you can hold your value system over my own.

whether the trees hold value or not depends on we the subjects

Actually if we humans cannot put value on say, a tree in the Amazon Forrest because we are not interacting with it, the trees value is set, we can neither add or take away, our own value system is different from the trees inherent value

Nothing has inherent value.

Value only exists in the mind. Because I can just as easily choose to not value the tree.

But that is a subjective thing to say, and with all due respect to you it is also an arrogant position to hold, humanity does not give things created by god value, god creates them with inherent value, there are beautiful planets that we will never ever be able to perceive, but I am sure they have inherent value that cannot be measured by man,
The black hole in the center of our galaxy is more valuable than all human life on earth because without it all the stars would collide and destroy our world

A black hole is also apart of nature, and it is invisible to the human eye, therefore it has value, regardless if we are aware of it or not.

God doesn't imbue things with value

Value isn't something we can observe or measure without a metric. And we only choose metrics because we value them.

God, could see things as having value, or create them with a purpose or value in mind, but God is a subject.