Message from @MENELIK THE IMPENETRABLE
Discord ID: 694677120097583126
Or stuff like courage and honour being objectively good
they're not lol spoilers
in that case I think some of them are objective.
Like we can all agree that murder and theft are wrong.
@The Desert Fox VI Yes There are universal objective values,
Two values are the preservation of nature and the preservation of kinship,
These values are programmed into us by the creator of the universe and violating these values can shorten your lifespan and the lifespan of others,
Upholding these values allow a fertile environment for man to flourish.
These 2 values echo through the cultures and religions of the world,
E.g. when god created Adam and saw that he was lonely he realised that no man is an island, and man must form bonds to tether himself to this earth or he will become lonely and depressed(self destructive)
In Christianity and Islam Man is created from the dust of the ground and will return to it, man also relies on the vegetation of the earth to survive as well as all other forms of food in our ecosystem,
We must form bonds with both nature and man and if we refuse to do so, we will suffer the consequences.
@MENELIK THE IMPENETRABLE what would you say is the nature of the creator?
Philosophy and religion has tried to answer that question for millennia,
Many say the creator is good, many say the creator is bad,
The creator is the creator of all things in this universe therefore every quality that is made manifest, emanates from the creator,
He is both good and bad,he lives but not among the living, nor does he live a life known by the living,He is curious yet all knowing, He is all powerful but also gentle,
The creators nature is beyond the mediocre conception of man, many questions that we have we lack the ability to grasp the answer and no matter what we hear about the creator, there are qualities about the creator that are LITERALLY unutterable, therefore the creator has many unknowable qualities,
When we all pass on from this plane we will learn a little more but the creator is a master of secrets and he would not be fit for that title if a mere human can predict 100% what he&she is.
neither the preservation of nature nor kinship are objective
with the extinction of the human race will come the extinction of these values
@Spider SutraThe preservation of nature will continue when humans go extinct, because nature does not need humanity, humanity needs nature, also if all humans die out, the creator will simply replace them, as he has done before.
valuing that preservation will not exist
even if nature exists, it takes a living thing to appreciate and value it
There are higher forms of life than us humans, they traverse the galaxy and are our custodians, when we die, other life forms will continue to value kinship and nature
<:wtf:591182282648190986>
well even so, then you're just relying on them
this value doesn't exist without subjects, whether they're humans or extradimensional hyper creatures
this doesn't establish any sort of objectivity
values require subjects
they're subjective, not objective
Objectivity is free from our personal feelings, that means if there is a being out there that appreciates nature, then it proves that our input is not required, the creator is eternal, so there will always be a being to value nature, because he created it
And if he wished it he could create other eternal beings that will preserve his creations forever
The creator is a subject.
Objective simply means free from personal opinion, our opinions still dont matter when it comes to nature, if I think it is wrong for oxygen to exist, it will not affect its existence
Even if the creator is a subject, the creator creates reality so he determines what is objectively true or not
no this is no longer objectivity then
objectivity exists without the consideration of a subject
oxygen exists whether we think of it or not
And so does nature
but these values don't exist outside the minds of men or even your creator
But the creator does not even regulate nature at this point and neither do humans, so regardless of what either of us think (humans and the creator)
Nature will continue to exist and regulate itself
Gravity is apart of nature, and its effect are alive regardless if the creator is involved or not
but values aren't like this
So an objective value is a value that is a value regardless of what we think or feel.
If I feel like I can cut down all the trees in the world, it does not change the fact that trees are valuable to the eco system, if I decide to preserve the trees the trees value still remains the same
@Spider Sutravery strong points though
I almost conceded
O_o
The trees are not valuble to the eco system, not really.
We see them as valuble because the ecosystem is made more resilient by those trees, but the eco system doesn't see the trees that way.
The eco system can't see the trees at all.
The ecosystem is made more resilient by those trees, because the trees add value to the ecosystem.
You take the trees away,
then the ecosystem will lose a certain quality of itself, that means that without anyone's opinion of the tree regardless if it hurts or helps, the tree is still a part of the ecosystem,
The same way our right hand is not needed on our body, we can survive without it, but our right hand offers value to our body,
So does a tree.