its just whatever i dont even think we were talking about the same thing

and no

its not important if you argue scientifically

well maybe it does

Hierarchical structure of change is that under which if the cause ceases the exist, so does the effect

Now, IF you don't have a phone, can you give me a phone?

You see how the begining says "IF you dont have a phone" - so no, the answer cant be "well what if the phone has always existed"

that makes sense

ok, so you agree that you cant give X if you dont have x

yes

Okay

so basically it goes like this if i have a phone i can dial a number if i dial a number i can call someone

but if i dont have the phone nothing happens at all

not go backwards

yes

i want to dial a number so i need a phone if i want a phone i need to buy one if i want to buy something i need money

so without money this all wouldnt have happened

okay cool

p3 If no member has independent mode of power in itself, then no member can transfer its mode of power to another
Do you now understand what is meant by premise 3? To transfer your mode of power to another, you must have it to begin with, but if you don't have it, you cannot transfer

I do get it now

i mean we are back at the start

because if you can always find something that caused the thing then you know

Ok so now since you agree with premise 3, you must also agree with premise 4, as in order to derive from another, that "another" must transfer something to begin with, but as nothing is being transferred, nothing can be derived, since derivation requires something being transferred

so essentially all youre saying is there has to be something higher in the hiearchy causing the next step in the hierarchy

i do agree

I dont understand what that means

but isnt that just what i said? if everything needs something higher in the hierarchy above it then everything does thus making the chain infinite??

What do you mean by "Higher"

so chain piece B is higher than C because B caused C to happen, while A caused B to happen which caused C to happen

thats what i mean by higher

so youre saying every chain piece needs a piece that caused it

By higher do you mean more fundamental?

basically yes

the phone is higher than the number dialing

the money is higher than the phone i bought with it

the money caused the phone the phone caused the number dialing

I don't like the phrasing "caused" since it implies that that has already transpired, and if B ceased to exist, C would continue to exist, lets use "is causing" since this phrasing is what is meant by hierarchical structure of change

so essentially everything is predetermined

what

so C wouldnt exist if B wouldnt exist either

B wouldnt without C