all societies have fallen otherwise

By what metric?

by complete collapse and being conquered

Uh no that hasn't been demonstrated.

I haven't seen a society being successful without there being something against murder

Alternatively, I choose to value abortive freedom over those metrics.

yes it has

10000 years of history

The US by many metrics is one of the most prosperous societies in history.

yep

abortion isn't proven

but I claim it will be

it is detrimantal

Okay well...I guess we'll see 😅

I don't stop you

Is it?

Not by my metrics.

By my metrics abortion is GREAT

and doesn't matter for objective and societal norms

we will see though

Your metrics are not any more objective than mine.

yep

The choice to value them will always be subjective.

I just think abortion is a great exception which must be removed

what will happen and what is objective is too much for us

but I have mine position and I think of defending it

I agree, which is why I'm condused by your attempts to disguise your position as objectively correct when even you say objectivity is beyond us.

I have said why I think my position will be right

your arguments are insufficient for me

and go often against the proven objective standpoints

Such as what?

murder is OK

That isn't objective

At least not by the dictionary definition.

murder is bad is objective

Sometimes you and I are bound to support unlawful killings.

form there I say abortion is muder thus wrong

Like what?

if none thretens my tribe they are fine

threatening basic human rights is violation of them and so threatens me

For instance, let's say a child predator was wrongfully found innocent.