I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here

Right, there is that half, but that half doesn't lend itself to affirmative action

it does lend itself to other solutions

even though I agree with you that the sum of all the differences don't need to be righted, not addressing that half was more or less deliberate.

Oh absolutely like TREAT EVERYONE WITH EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES

😉

Actually I'm not against righting differences.. to an extent. If it means removing those differences. But I don't know if there should be Lee way given to those effected

For instance class differences

Well perhaps a situation that would be more likely to generate real differences between us would be the earnings gap.

For instance, the earnings gap is largely a difference between mothers and fathers, not between men and women, once one accounts for hours worked

..

Now this related to mother's choices to be available to her children

However

Michael Kimmel might say that the inequality of those choices compared to father's choices to support those children financially ought to be addressed. Recognizing fully that those choices are not made in a vacuum, but rather made to conform to greater social realities.

To an extent I agree (of course, unlike Kimmel I would not categorize that difference as being a form of oppression, but meh)

do you?

One argument I've seen brought up is that more women are needed in certain fields because women bring a different perspective to the field than men do. So obviously that specific claim doesn't cling to oppression to justify affirmitive action, but rather to improving the field through 'diversity'

Ew. That is indeed another way to justify affirmative action. I don't really know what to say to it except that "it might bring different perspectives" sounds like a really shitty justification for institutionalized sexism.

I need to pause but I'll come back

Actually, wait, I *do* know what to say to that. Excluding women from medicine and psychology for the next 50 years might also bring different perspectives to the field. Is that a justification for institutionalized sexism? Then we shouldn't do the same for diversity either unless we can put together some data that shows a causative link with better results.

Institutionalized sexism is really bad from a justice perspective and we shouldn't institute it unless we have a really good frickin reason. At least other justifications for affirmative action are about breaking down institutionalized sexism.

I don't think it necessarily implies you need to enact retribution

Small changes only need small nudges.

Not a complete flip

And I think there is something to be said for adding men to fields like midwifery. The system ATM is a cess pit of bitchery

https://youtu.be/Ebhe7wEyygk?t=649

Bwaaahaha. I'm watching that to get to the point where Kimmel talks about the wage gap being a matter of mothers and fathers

But man

where he goes first is just...its just...oh dear

"Economists don't say that...No serious economist has said that the gender wage gap is a myth" Yeah, right. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y021WAdUlW8

Here's the Michael Kimmel bit that I think has a bit of sense:

https://youtu.be/Ebhe7wEyygk?t=742

That particular timestamp is great to hand any feminist who argues for the wage gap

because that guy is one heck of a feminist, but even he freely admits that the wage gap isn't what people say it is.

You gov already proved that 70% of the u k don't know what the wage

Actually means

Yeah, that was unfortunate to hear

Which is interesting and does make me wonder how large that 30% is and how many of those are potentially be quiet anti-feminist mra Hibs

Type"

Sorry I'm using dictate as I'm driving

I'm pretty sure that Kimmel guy is still a delusional idiot on the wage gap, he says the opinion of employers when men have kids is 'oh let's give them a raise' and on women their wage flatlines. Just because his only worthy line is eliminating the 'wage gap' by "supporting parents" doesn't mean he has a correct view on what it is, he clearly wanted to argue against men working more hours after kids and women working less, but couldn't, he could only say "it's not the case"