Only if those particular fields have declined

Attendance of uni /=/ attendance of specific degree

Medicine definitely counts then

I don't think it really does there, James. Remember that with affirmative action we're talking about people who are barely capable of entering the fields in the first place

Many university degrees do not find employment in their degree

these things are not unrelated

But if we're to go but oppression logic

They have the ability not the opportunity or the right background

The background being as men they were never given all the "women in stem* days

One of the keys behind the oppression logic is that they do in fact have the capability, but discrimination is stopping them. That claim couldn't really be made for affirmative action for women, and certainly not for men

Because even if the problem was systemic (some of it, much of it isn't), it isn't a matter of discrimination

And therefore affirmative action has no real power to fix it

You forget that the other half of oppression logic acknowledges that even if the selection isn't discriminatory it doesn't mean the sum of all of the differences leading up to it don't need to be righted

I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here

Right, there is that half, but that half doesn't lend itself to affirmative action

it does lend itself to other solutions

even though I agree with you that the sum of all the differences don't need to be righted, not addressing that half was more or less deliberate.

Oh absolutely like TREAT EVERYONE WITH EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES

😉

Actually I'm not against righting differences.. to an extent. If it means removing those differences. But I don't know if there should be Lee way given to those effected

For instance class differences

Well perhaps a situation that would be more likely to generate real differences between us would be the earnings gap.

For instance, the earnings gap is largely a difference between mothers and fathers, not between men and women, once one accounts for hours worked

..

Now this related to mother's choices to be available to her children

However

Michael Kimmel might say that the inequality of those choices compared to father's choices to support those children financially ought to be addressed. Recognizing fully that those choices are not made in a vacuum, but rather made to conform to greater social realities.

To an extent I agree (of course, unlike Kimmel I would not categorize that difference as being a form of oppression, but meh)

do you?

One argument I've seen brought up is that more women are needed in certain fields because women bring a different perspective to the field than men do. So obviously that specific claim doesn't cling to oppression to justify affirmitive action, but rather to improving the field through 'diversity'

Ew. That is indeed another way to justify affirmative action. I don't really know what to say to it except that "it might bring different perspectives" sounds like a really shitty justification for institutionalized sexism.

I need to pause but I'll come back

Actually, wait, I *do* know what to say to that. Excluding women from medicine and psychology for the next 50 years might also bring different perspectives to the field. Is that a justification for institutionalized sexism? Then we shouldn't do the same for diversity either unless we can put together some data that shows a causative link with better results.

Institutionalized sexism is really bad from a justice perspective and we shouldn't institute it unless we have a really good frickin reason. At least other justifications for affirmative action are about breaking down institutionalized sexism.

I don't think it necessarily implies you need to enact retribution

Small changes only need small nudges.

Not a complete flip

And I think there is something to be said for adding men to fields like midwifery. The system ATM is a cess pit of bitchery

https://youtu.be/Ebhe7wEyygk?t=649

Bwaaahaha. I'm watching that to get to the point where Kimmel talks about the wage gap being a matter of mothers and fathers

But man