My man Indigo, your passion is bright, but you come in guns-a-blazing, and it will hurt you more than help you in most cases, so I'm glad you asked for definitions. Add your own for the term "toxic" in reference to -ininities.

Which is in fact a societal expectation of men to be dominant

But is it harmful to that man?

Violence? Then it is

Dominance? Then it depends

And specifically how is violence harmful to the man?

I would not contest that society still views that men are to be the more dominant, but the definition of proper domination is changing, and the inequality is beginning to fade. This will be a totally different discussion in 20 years.

@Dan da Dad just debating dude.

Proper meaning actionable. Work/pay bills/make financial decisions/decide where family lives - currently still expected of men moreso than women

You need proof for violence being harmful for anyone

Jail time

Emotional problems

Improper - denying the ability to use the car or phone, mandating basic human needs like what to eat or wear - is legally actionable

@Dan da Dad it's not just the society but women who put the expectations on men.

Violence is actionable regardless of who initiated and the gender of the victim. The problem is we are on the tail end of the stigma

It's a society thing. And society is changing about that.

Society and women are practically synonyms

Debatable, and I take a differing stance

See, who gets, more sex... The alpha frat boy or the nerd

It's almost universally true that dominant men get more sex

And hence dominance is a gender expectation on men by women

To base society on the value of sex and who gets more is kind of skewed...I don't think I can follow with that as the basis of how we govern and tax and punish

Society evolved through sexual selection

Sex is the most important driver of behavior

It's not just sex women decide. You only have to look at what gains traction, what thinga society does for women in application of law, where research is aimed, pension age, how each sex is judged and why, and you can see that society is completely geared on making life easier for women.

Toxic masculinity as you and PM describe may exist, but it strips masculinity of any good qualities, and I disagree that many feminists today recognise that definition when speaking of men

Right. Foreign policy dictates a lot of our own privacy laws stateside because we need a reasonable basis for how we are protected from each other before we can dictate how we are protected abroad

If sex is the driver, than woman gaining suffrage and political position and business/landownership in the last few decades means we are the weaker gender and losing, as opposed to us all becoming better as a whole, and them simply closing the gap

It's the cause of the incel phenomenon

The lower strata of men are losing

I must add that technology and social media has made more information available - including the spread of the "plight" of incel-dom. It may have always been there, but we may just not have know. Also, with a more populous world, the numbers may be more, but the percentages must have waxed and waned over time.

Women generally don't marry down. It's statistically proven. Lot of highly educated women are complaining that they can't find a partner equal or more qualified than her. There are a lot of articles on it.

The narrowing of the selection pool

Ok, let's take that for granted for this discussion.

How does that impact the law concerning violence and other forms of abuse?

It doesn't

You bought this discussion onto it

toxic femininity/masculinity was where I came in

I mean where you said.

If sex is the driver, the women gaining suffrage....

I'm saying, in your view, that women are overtaking men in terms of rights and power - so if it's due to sexuality, that they must be the stronger gender

I think both men and women are climbing in power, and in doing so, women are closer to men now than ever, but that it's not a game of pie