so I'm not entirely up to date on it

give me a sec, I just got to the point where it "explains" the gender paradox

haha

Alright

Some gems

Gender conditioning might address the last point you made

"whereas the higher rate of suicidal death among men is probably associated with the choice of the method." -- remember, they are publishing a study that shows quite clearly that the choice of method cannot explain that higher rate even if men and women attempted suicide at equal rates

And just about all the other reasons given are listed, by this same study, as "theories" that may be consistent with data, but nothing substantitive

That's the most substantive statement it makes

Yes, it posits a social model that addresses gender conditioning

but isn't something substantive

and isn't presented as such

Im not understanding your points are you arguing with data ? Or asking why men have a higher success rate than women when using the same method ?

I'm saying that men *do* have a higher success rate than women when using the same method, and that difference is black-and-white

Method choice doesn't explain squat

the speculative writing in the paper of your link is pretty shallow, so it ought not to be used as a serious attempt at diagnosing the problem. Rather, it is an introductory one.

I don’t agree but I respect your opinion

I think this one sentence "[Women] also tend to perceive problems as personal and seek help at health care institutions. The males usually see their distress as a result of economic or social problems, they deny that they have depression, and tend to abuse alcohol. ", which is based on data from another paper, is likely getting at something important, but I'd love to substantiate how important that is

You can compare those sorts of trends to what happens in NSSI (non-suicidal self-injury), which is very much a women's issue, and has some really interesting developmental breakpoints with regard to boys and girls.

“Worth mentioning is a neglected factor that contributes to the gender suicide ratio – the wound site or the area of the body that is wounded in firearm suicides. Males may have a higher rate of suicides by firearms partially due to their greater likelihood than women for shooting themselves in the head as opposed to the body. This has been related to gender differences in fear of facial disfigurement and suicide intent. Data from 807 suicides committed with firearms revealed that women were 47% less apt than men to shoot themselves in the head as well as use shotguns and rifles in their suicides (weapons that make head shooting awkward). The findings are consistent with the assumption that women are more concerned than men about facial disfigurement, and that women have a lower desire to die than men [33]. At this point one can see gender conditioning resulting not only from the psychopathology or suicidology, but also from psychology – women, even in the face of death (or only an attempt), are concerned with aesthetics and their own appearance.”

You can apply this to NSSI as well

"The findings are consistent with the assumption...that women have a lower desire to die than men"

The question is how much of the difference is fear based

and how much of it is strength of suicidal desire-based

how would you like to measure that ?

I hope I am not intruding but, I believe women are more sensitive towards themselves than men are. Although this is completely anecdotal, men tend to be reckless on both the ends. This can also be interlinked to the social factors which develop such mental conditioning, more so because of the reactions, a societal setting offers to men. Whereas, women, in general seem to generate more empathy from the peers, this could be the best possible explanation as to why they seem to be open about their problems. Because they don't receive hostile reactions from the peers which don't seem to be the case with men.

I think that is at least a very significant part of the problem

Your not intruding at all it’s almost 1 am where im at so I was about to go to sleep

Time zones are a wonderful thing.

There's no direct way to measure suicidal desire, in part because looking into the human heart (or brain) tends to provide you with a bunch of squishy material and little else. However, you can look at more specific categorical differences motivations between men and women. You can try to measure stress. You can ask whether suicide survivors were committing suicide based on loss of loved one or being left by one's SO, and how many were ostensibly economic in nature.

That sort of thing

I know that being left by a girlfriend/boyfriend is a disturbingly and surprisingly common motive

though I don't believe it is one of the top reasons

Some of these categories generate less suicidal desire than others, and are less easy to address by society.

..

It is hard to get good data on this from dead people though, so you have to use survivors as a proxy, which causes issues

Suicides don't happen based on a sole failure in life. There has to be enough piling up of problems behind the final motive. It's circumstances which dictate the move rather than a sole incident.

I'm not so sure, most suicides don't appear to be planned at all. So while I do agree that it is likely for there to be piling up problems in a sense, for most suicides you're looking for a more acute explanation than chronic.

I think more suicides are planned than not

@asparkofpyrokravte you don't really need to gather data from the successful suicide attempts, no reason you can't ask the survivors

http://www.sprc.org/news/planned-impulsive-suicide-attempts