in socialism, people as a rule work

you choose what you work on, but you do work

Why should workers control this stuff?

or as socialists put it: *socially useful labour*

I think elites should

@appalachianboy Welcome!

the infrastructure which all of us are dependent on, should be in the purview of all to decide on

Those who are experts, specializing in management and rule

That's just democracy

yes, socialism in purest terms is democracy applied to economics and production

Children shouldn't vote on their bed time

The father, who rules over his children, who owns the house, who feeds them, should decide

the problem with democracy is that 2 idiots are more powerful than 1 intellectual

The only superfluous figure in an enterprise is the capitalist management. You can remove the capitalist, and have an enterprise still function, but you cannot remove the whole staff and leave the capitalist. This is a reality of enterprises, how they are based, a reality on their character.

@Xinyue You have to explain why a "true societal consensus politics" is a good thing, your basically advocating a truer democracy i guess..

about taking part in labor unaliented by the result, i think first of all that's utopian.. second even if you had it, it sounds like hell.
Why would you try to improve yourself or conform to society maintaining the social structure if you don't fail hard or have societal checks on you?

Also, even in Socialism, there is an Aristocracy, an Intelligentsia, so there isn't this total equality, this situation can be created by other systems that have proven to be far more sustainable.

@AdorableStormtrooper I don't think I can put it forward in a way that you will find satisfying. Our ethical and ontological views are far too much apart. It relates to my views on consciousness, how consciousness relates to the natural world, and why anything at all exists. It goes into my existential views which are too bothersome and obnoxious to go into here. But I have my own philosophical views which affirm the ethical necessity of this. Similar to, and originating from, my Buddhist years.

Apparently corporations are willing to pay their executives significantly more than a low level employee.

```The only superfluous figure in an enterprise is the capitalist management. You can remove the capitalist, and have an enterprise still function, but you cannot remove the whole staff and leave the capitalist. This is a reality of enterprises, how they are based, a reality on their character.```


there were man made Famines in Soviet Ukraine based on this delusion, just remove the most competitive leadership among you that has arisen and everything will be fine, no better! it wasn't

Why would that be? According to you the low level employees are essential and the executive is completely superfluous

It seems like the corporations value executives significantly more, which is why they pay them so much more.

Just free market capitalist economy with social policies and be done with it jeez

@Nikitis so

Worker-cooperatives function well without any capitalist. The workers elect their own managers via democratic vote, and manage the operation and functions of their production, plans, goals, etc. via councils. This has existed for a long time as a model for enterprise.

basically canada

and what bernie wants

Europe in a nutshell

welfare capitalism is the ultimate gay

SHADDAP

JUST

SHADDAPP

why dont you sit down and have some

delicious

b e e f

A corporation is concerned only with profits. It will pay executives higher than low level employees because it concludes that this will increase profits.

The entirety of Yugoslav economy was founded upon this kind of worker-cooperative organisation; the Mondragon Cooperative Federation has functioned as such for half a century and is Spain's 12th largest enterprise - it weathered, for example, the great Spanish depression and economic crisis where many capitalist enterprises faltered

Lmao

so that's strong evidence to the contrary

Worker Coops are legal rn

They exist in capitalist economies

and they should form the sole basis of economic activity alongside the state and municipal sectors