So there is no objective standard

For questions dependent on subjects' conditions of life, yes

Good

The want of a system where there is freedom for individuals comes from a subjective standard

It does, yes

Tell me what you guys think about this... One needs their *freedoms* to fulfill their *responsibilities*.

No, not really

One has freedoms, and responsibilities, and both overlap here and there but not in all areas

You have *freedom* so you can for example Articulate your Thoughts and convince the Society against a Hole that you see in the Future we might fall into.

That's why you have Freedom of Speech

for example

Well yes, freedom is important in that you can not only help yourself in reaching goals and avoiding pitfalls, but to help others in this way also

If you are robbed of freedom, you can do neither

Of course its built into us, the desire for freedom - the more degrees of freedom an organism has, the better for its chances of survival. In this sense, our desire for freedom has an objective basis.

Yes, you have certain responsibilities towards yourself and your family as well, so we have Freedom of Religion.. so you can fulfill your duties towards your God

Freedoms exist so that you are allowed a Space to fulfill your duties and responsibilities, to yourself, your family and your society.

Well yes but not just that, but also your aspirations

Its not solely about duties

nor solely about aspirations

like in most things, there's a dialectic between the two; one bleeds into another, and they produce synthesis

Your aspirations should ideally be actually good for yourself, your family and your society... shouldn't they?

also i don't agree at all with the statement, more freedom an individual organism has the better it's chances of survival.. that's just not true in any sense

Aspirations usually are by default in the interest of the subject, and in cases they aren't I think its often the case that something is wrong with the brain of the individual, there's mental illness, perhaps a brain tumour etc. when self-harming

You have all the freedom to build yourself up *and* to destroy yourself.

It really matters what you do with it..

```Aspirations usually are by default in the interest of the subject, and in cases they aren't I think its often the case that something is wrong with the brain of the individual, there's mental illness, perhaps a brain tumour etc. when self-harming```


nah man, it happens all the time.. we think we want something.. we try.. we get it.. and then we're like.. meh..
it's hard to know what is actually good for us and what will satisfy us, it's not as easy and not everyone is able to figure it out by themselves.

> also i don't agree at all with the statement, more freedom an individual organism has the better it's chances of survival.. that's just not true in any sense

The degrees of freedom translate to greater number of pastures to feed in, more options to hide from predators, more pathways to escape should a predator pursue you; in social context degrees of freedom might translate to number of the population and thereby potential mates, etc.

Certainly the opposite is true at least,

that is,

the less degrees of freedom, the worse

not on an individual basis.

i won't totally discard Parentalism (i think that's what it's called)

> it's hard to know what is actually good for us and what will satisfy us, it's not as easy and not everyone is able to figure it out by themselves.

I don't think anyone figures it out by themselves

the more freedom you have, not only the more options you have to succeed

the more options you have to fuckup

if you have a crack addict and you administer them an authoritarian intervention where you're able to slowly ween them off crack say.. you have curtailed their freedom and as a result they might survive and not be miserable @Xinyue

they might survive and be super miserable too man

You seem to be arguing as though I'm an individualist, I'm not one though, I'm a collectivist

there's place for Authoritarianism in personal relationships, i just think it doesn't work from public policy perspective.

once you do crack you never go back

Authoritarianism in most cases is warranted in places where things go wrong and need quick correction