also if you want more info on grain exports https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMBJ_nQ4sTA

this is more in depth

We know very clearly how they operated. We have countless examples of them twisting the truth to suit their ideology and not the other way around. The fact that you would trust documents of theirs that throw all blame on people that they had every reason to malign because they branded them unequivocably as political enemies and then try to deflect to an argument that no one made (capitalist documents) yeah, guess what? I don't trust the CIA or FBI either. We know how the Soviets propagated disinformation, stop trying to pretend you can trust them with the truth.

what book is that?

and also i can say why would you trust the black book of communism, why would trust that book? you don't have any counter evidence

saying "i know how the system works" doesn't mean anything

if you have any counter evidence against the documents, i would like to see them

The book is The End of Committment by Paul Hollander. for your information, I have not read the black book of communism, but I have read accounts of people who lived under those systems.

i'm still waiting for counter evidence against the documents

Well, unlike certain people who make it their primary occupation to perform apologia for dead oppressive regimes, I don't have these readily to hand. I must ask you to be patient while I look for links to documents. Are you capable of being a good boy and waiting, or are you going to try to make the argument that unless I instantaneously provide documents, my whole argument is invalid?

you just said read a book that you read before, that doesn't mean anything. take your time getting links.

@Dinosorcerer if you like to read, read this https://www.garethjones.org/tottlefraud.pdf

😉

here's the paper book https://www.amazon.com/Fraud-Famine-Fascism-Ukrainian-Genocide/dp/0919396518

or it might be hardcover idk

https://books.google.com/books/about/Fraud_Famine_and_Fascism.html?id=5wkJi1jvL3UC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button#v=onepage&q&f=false

liberalism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnun8y7r8_U

let's start with Mr. Gareth Jones then, a man who had no more love from anything I can gleam for Mr. Hitler than he did for Mr. Stalin. Jones slipped the notice of his Soviet handlers and ventured into Ukraine by himself to document what he saw there. when he returned from the Soviet Union, he wrote an article for the London Evening Standard that was published on March 31st, 1933. the full article, documenting his observations can be found here:
https://www.garethjones.org/soviet_articles/famine_rules_russia.htm

Walter Duranty, a well established foreign correspondent in Russia attempted to rebut Mr. Jones' work, and he was rebuffed by a second article of Jones' on May 1st:
https://web.archive.org/web/20030324021639/http://colley.co.uk/garethjones/soviet_articles/jones_replies.htm

That's evil capitalist propaganda, just like all those evil zionists propagating the holohoax!

in this second article, Jones makes note of several consulates he spoke with about whom he says: "My first evidence was gathered from foreign observers. Since Mr. Duranty introduces consuls into the discussion, a thing I am loath to do, for they are official representatives of their countries and should not be quoted, may I say that I discussed the Russian situation with between twenty and thirty consuls and diplomatic representatives of various nations and that their evidence supported my point of view. But they are not allowed to express their views in the press, and therefore remain silent." Jones would be vindicated by various letters later uncovered from these consulates back to their mother countries regarding their concerns about the famine. a great many of which can be found here: http://www.faminegenocide.com/resources/hdocuments.htm#5

along with internal letters between Soviet officials clearly aknowledging a state of famine in the Ukraine and the other socialist republics and complaints from various people in Ukraine including Komsomol members.

and all this before the Nazis even came to power. so take your Nazi propaganda argument and shove it up your ass

<:Merchant:437035074249162772> did someone say holohoax

😉

@Dinosorcerer, it occurs to me that a foreigner trying to save his family in the USSR from starvation might have been able send large amounts of bread to the village they were in without any kind of overt implication of famine and mismanagement by labelling it a "luxury food", a gourmet bread.

You get to feed your family during the famine, the Soviets don't have to abide any nasty implications about what is happening in their lands.

ah, but we do not have such bourgeois concepts of luxury in the USSR. that is why all our leaders have mansions on the Black Sea. for state purposes, you understand

After all, imports of luxury foods are what happens during times of prosperity.

lol

@Dinosorcerer, how would you have gotten food to them if you had relatives in the USSR?

I would try to get my relatives out if I could, but if they were in Ukraine, I'd be shit out of luck. curious that the Soviets were so keen to close the Ukrainian borders in particular, preventing travel as much as possible to even the other SSRs. a measure not enforced anywhere near as stringently anywhere else in the Union

a fun little excerpt of a letter from Hryhori Petrovsky, the head of the Soviet All-Ukrainian Executive Committee, to Stalin and Vyatcheslav Molotov with regards to the famine situation in Ukraine
"We knew beforehand that fulfilling state grain procurements in Ukraine would be difficult, but what I have seen in the countryside indicates that we have greatly overdone it, we tried too hard. I was in many raion villages and saw a considerable part of the countryside engulfed in famine. There aren’t many, but there are people swollen from starvation, mainly poor peasants and even middle class farmers. They’re eating food scraps from the bottom of the barrel, if any are available. During well-attended meetings in the villages, I am yelled at for nothing, old women cry and men sometimes do also. At times the criticism of the situation created goes very deep and wide: 'Why did they create an artificial famine? After all, we had a harvest. Why did they take away the sowing seeds? That did not happen even under the old regime. Why should Ukrainians make treacherous journeys for bread to non-grain producing areas? Why isn’t grain being brought here?' And so on."

* gets job at jewyork times

@ebowden I guess if I absolutely had to get food to any relatives, I would have done what Jones did, try and find a way to sneak into the country and get food to them that way. that would necessitate trying to get a position similar to Jones' like a correspondent so that the Soviet government would be more hesitant to abuse me. after all, the Soviets wanted to put on a good face to the world, and they rewarded loyal lapdogs like Duranty handsomely for what was essentially one step below state-sponsored propaganda. that would leave me with a moral dilemma however: do I go through the motions and write what they want me to write so that I can feed my family, keeping them healthy, but lying to the world; or tell the truth and only get one opportunity to give them food, dooming them to starvation and possibly death?

depends on how up the food chain you were..... i think it would be more reasonable to start a secret farm and feed your family that way

go to a town that out of the way and have the produces send to your family

at least long term wise other wise smuggling would be the best short term opt

What kind of food would you smuggle?

zero cal monsters DUH!