Message from @Death in June

Discord ID: 673486336145227778


2020-02-02 11:01:30 UTC  

Well let's ask a basic question. What are you referring to when you say Capitalism? The economic model? The Liberal State? Neo-Liberalism?

2020-02-02 11:01:51 UTC  

I'm referring to regulated market capitalism

2020-02-02 11:03:18 UTC  

i would give it the following characteristics
1. generalized private ownership of capital
2. generalized wage labor (most people sell their labor to property owners)
3. generalized production for exchange (goods are generally produced to be sold)
4. capital is sovereign, capital owned is the primary determinant of political power

2020-02-02 11:03:30 UTC  

but you could call systems that don't have the fourth aspect "state capitalist"

2020-02-02 11:03:41 UTC  

like in nazi germany or south korea or japan pre-liberalization

2020-02-02 11:04:13 UTC  

or the prc, though in the prc private ownership and state ownership are roughly equal

2020-02-02 11:05:27 UTC  

you could also add capital accumulation that is the product of production for exchange

2020-02-02 11:09:15 UTC  

Alright. I will agree with June that within the capitalist system there is the monopolization of a certain kind of capital that can lead to somewhat rigid hirearchies.

2020-02-02 11:09:34 UTC  

No one is going to make Bill Gates poor any time soon.

2020-02-02 11:09:52 UTC  

No matter how good their product is.

2020-02-02 11:09:53 UTC  

social mobility isn't really my contention with it

2020-02-02 11:10:10 UTC  

What is your contention then?

2020-02-02 11:10:27 UTC  

the incentives associated with it

2020-02-02 11:11:00 UTC  

a less "meritorious" can be superior to a more meritorious one if the incentives associated with it are better

2020-02-02 11:11:32 UTC  

"better" ha
Good luck with figuring out what's "better"

2020-02-02 11:11:46 UTC  

well i mean sure that can be difficult

2020-02-02 11:12:07 UTC  

but unless you're just apathetic to what hierarchies there are and/or how you would like them to be you have some conception of what is better

2020-02-02 11:13:32 UTC  

so like if i were to compare a system wherein the highest authority is embodied by a hereditary monarch as opposed to capital and by extension those who hold the most of it

2020-02-02 11:13:40 UTC  

the latter might be more meritorious

2020-02-02 11:14:06 UTC  

in the sense that the people who comprise it are probably going to be on average better capitalists than the monarch would be a statesman

2020-02-02 11:14:15 UTC  

however the incentives associated with the former are arguably better

2020-02-02 11:14:30 UTC  

I mean if you place meritocracy as the highest value... I really don't

2020-02-02 11:14:43 UTC  

because in that situation the monarch is incentivized to care about the health of the sovereign as a whole and in the long term as well

2020-02-02 11:14:58 UTC  

In theory perhaps.

2020-02-02 11:15:11 UTC  

though i would add a caveat that in an absolute monarchy at least the incentives can become perverse if the monarch is too incompetent

2020-02-02 11:15:12 UTC  

But there is a reason why Monarchies fell.

2020-02-02 11:15:23 UTC  

but i mean of course we aren't subject to absolute rule by capital either

2020-02-02 11:15:36 UTC  

so a more fitting comparison would be a monarchy similar to say morocco

2020-02-02 11:16:09 UTC  

i think it's because they were dealt two major blows

2020-02-02 11:16:11 UTC  

Undoubtedly so, however the monarchy system's fatal flaw is the idea that everyone in the line of descendants upholds the health of the sovereignty as a whole. It has no ability to correct for incompetence in the event of a terrible leader by awarding authority based solely upon heredity.

2020-02-02 11:16:20 UTC  

one, from the ascent of capitalism, the bourgeoisie, and liberalism

2020-02-02 11:16:29 UTC  

and then from WW1

2020-02-02 11:16:36 UTC  

and perhaps you could say WW2 to an extent as well

2020-02-02 11:16:44 UTC  

sure i agree with that

2020-02-02 11:17:26 UTC  

to an extent at least

2020-02-02 11:17:36 UTC  

Yes. Nepotism would be the fall to a system that devalues meritocracy.

2020-02-02 11:17:41 UTC  

an elective monarchy might be preferable

2020-02-02 11:17:52 UTC  

but the thing is is that nepotism is restricted

2020-02-02 11:18:23 UTC  

because it's not in the interests of the monarch to allow for the health of the institutions that support the sovereign to be compromised by such things

2020-02-02 11:18:39 UTC  

and often they have a fair degree of authority to stamp out such things

2020-02-02 11:18:51 UTC  

i mean of course they might be nepotistic toward their family