Haven't heard this distinction before.

just the idea being Taxation is theft

if you choose to pay into a system like Social Security or you have a choice to opt out it removes the monopoly of force from the equation

and the system could only get better

but if it is forced the system only devolves because non net contributers to the system will be the majority and they will vote for more

but it removes force only for that particular right, no?

yes

but this is more abstract than anything else

if being a citizen of a country wasnt inherent it was something that had to be earned

the system could only benefit

non net contributers could not subvert the system to their will

Well here we go Dan, these are the words to the argument I had drifting around in my head unable to articulate.

the problem of democracy was disscussed by our founding fathers at length

it needs checks and balances

but they could have never predicted the idea of positive rights

Yeah man that's a really helpful concept. So libertarians basically don't like positive rights for the most part, sort of as an inherent general rule?

I like my positive rights

only if they are held as a monopoly by the government

Positive right are more of a pragmatic argument

if you had a choice between social secutiy or keeping your money an investing it yourself

social security could only benifit because now it has to compete

You can invest your money here

it would have to provide more positives than negatives to survive

but here you dont have a choice if you can keep the money to pay into SS

You can split the tax money you have to pay between the goverment and private investment here

So a positive right is the notion that something is required to be provided to you. So if someone *other* then govt is required to provide it, then it's okay?

if someone was providing a service to you

it would no longer be a right

it would just be something you choose to pay into

It is more of a positive privelege

I go away for an hour and now I have to catch up on a debate about voting

have fun dude

k bai franti

I am staying

oh I see

I already went away

Regarding voting, You are part of the citizenry, as whole the goverment serves the whole citizenry

Sure, so one example of a pretty solid positive right would be police protection. But then again... that's tricky. As far as I'm aware, police aren't actually required to protect you, correct?

Police are for law enforcment

police protect property rights

They are not a protection sevice