Message from @Apotheosis

Discord ID: 401622245841043466


2018-01-13 06:03:41 UTC  

It seems that sometimes a societal entity or member of an incapacitated or not-fully-matured individual must make a decision for them, but what is the basis of this moral decision?

2018-01-13 06:04:40 UTC  

what counts as "defense" for a child/incapable person?

2018-01-13 06:06:17 UTC  

The basis is maxisization of individial liberty, that means you make sure they regain their ability to chose if deprived and make sure most if not all choices are reserved when they regain their ability to chose for themself.

2018-01-13 06:06:34 UTC  

Or you leave them for dead

2018-01-13 06:08:19 UTC  

Surely this individual liberty can't come at the expense of that of others, right?

2018-01-13 06:08:41 UTC  

Yes

2018-01-13 06:10:31 UTC  

But also surely, people should be allowed to compete under some conception of a meritocracy. That would result in the meritorious triumphing over not meritorious, at their expense.

2018-01-13 06:10:43 UTC  

However that would be a valid expense, yes?

2018-01-13 06:11:34 UTC  

not everyone can have the "liberty" to be the best

2018-01-13 06:11:42 UTC  

Yes

2018-01-13 06:12:57 UTC  

but some conceptions of competition do not benefit the group, and it is only a tyranny of the strong over the weak by some definition

2018-01-13 06:13:49 UTC  

so then what we really care about is what moral system, what moral principles we should compete under, that benefit the group

2018-01-13 06:14:02 UTC  

did I use any sleight of hand there?

2018-01-13 06:14:29 UTC  

or is it that individual rights and benefits must be balanced with the good of the collective?

2018-01-13 06:14:53 UTC  

what defines that balance?

2018-01-13 06:15:45 UTC  

well, that would be what I suggest as the basis for morality: principles that promote survival and reproduction within the group, that promote power and stability for competition with other groups

2018-01-13 06:16:04 UTC  

and against nature

2018-01-13 06:19:06 UTC  

a balance completely toward individualism would dissolve the group and turn individuals against each other in destructive way

2018-01-13 06:22:04 UTC  

as for a balance skewed completely toward collectivism, it's a bit harder to show why that is not a good idea

2018-01-13 06:22:15 UTC  

I need to introduce a few more things

2018-01-13 06:23:25 UTC  

but the point is... morality is affected by evolutionary forces that act on the survival and reproduction of the group, not necessarily just the individuals

2018-01-13 06:24:08 UTC  

the same morality that we use to make our moral judgements, ostensibly in defense of individual rights, is grounded in a balanced individualist/collectivist morality

2018-01-13 06:24:46 UTC  

and you can call that "individualism" but really this is a misnomer

2018-01-13 06:25:19 UTC  

at least for the principles that allow for moral intervention of children/incapacitated etc.

2018-01-13 06:25:26 UTC  

Yes I want the person/s in power to share my morals. What is good for everyone is their individual rights. Why limit ur thinking of a princepels with in a gentic group. You say reproducion but that does not pass down belifs, insted think about converting people too ur ideaology as that, not reproduction spreads ideals. Which can contain ideals to protect those also in ur group.

2018-01-13 06:25:58 UTC  

reproduction does in fact spread ideals, allow me to explain

2018-01-13 06:26:37 UTC  

first of all, many traits like personality and IQ are partially heritable

2018-01-13 06:26:58 UTC  

Islam spreads through breeding.

2018-01-13 06:27:15 UTC  

The yearly number of converts and apostates are pretty much the same.

2018-01-13 06:27:28 UTC  

secondly, those who get to breed are those at the top of social hierarchies

2018-01-13 06:28:08 UTC  

Yes IQ and Personality are partally heritable, but its not 100%.

2018-01-13 06:28:11 UTC  

third, the people at the top of social hierarchies are those that most embody the ideals of the group

2018-01-13 06:28:39 UTC  

those that embody those ideals have traits that allow for it

2018-01-13 06:28:45 UTC  

they get to breed

2018-01-13 06:28:51 UTC  

and pass on those traits

2018-01-13 06:29:10 UTC  

oh and those traits affect what one's principles are

2018-01-13 06:29:16 UTC  

I did not inhert my parents ideals, and those far from my gentic pool share my ideals.

2018-01-13 06:29:42 UTC  

so, the principles are then passed on

2018-01-13 06:30:35 UTC  

the ideals are then protected by them for the sake of retaining the position of themselves and their progeny in the social hierarchy

2018-01-13 06:31:01 UTC  

of course, these actually need to be effective principles or else the group perishes against nature

2018-01-13 06:31:04 UTC  

or other groups