But the principles came first

We can see this when countries developed in the enlightenment and after

Namely that the principles of liberalism and freedom came first

Then they developed into economic policies that brought capitalism

I think the actual issue is the principles, but not the economic system

Or rather

Allow me to go to more ancient example

Greek vs Roman definitions of freedom

Capitalism didn't truly arise as an ideology until the mid-1800s though. Before that, it was just free markets. The American capitalists really set the stage for modern capitalism and its excesses resulted in the largest and most destructive revolutions in history. People were dying to avoid the coming capitalist future. Germany, Italy, Spain, etc chose the third position, the East chose communism.
Obviously the results of a concept are not an argument against it in principle, but it's something to consider. Real Capitalism™️ is as much a pipe dream as Real Communism™️

Well the cause of those revolutions was by and large the market collapse

Which could be attributed to capitalism in some ways

Caused by speculation and the abuses of big capitalists

But had many other issues too

Agreed

Yeah, speculation was a huge issue

Massive

It was complex, but the early twentieth century is a story of the collective horror of what the future would bring

And people readily chose to uproot the societal order several times before they let the bankers take control of their nations.

True

Again, I'm a fan of the efficiency and freedom of free markets, but I will never identity ideologically with capitalism. The market is a tool to be used to promote the welfare of the people, whether it's left to its own devices or state controlled down to the last dotted i

Of course, giving all the power to the bankers is inherently against free markets lol

Of course my argument is that is where it inevitably ends up.

Over and over again. The same way that communist countries end up starving again and again

Yeah, and on that I would beg to differ that free markets and capitalism lead to that

A fair position.

Mostly because I don't see history naturally culminating in that without a specific cause

Notably, outside the US

I am not ideologically tied down in economics like I am in social issues so I am certainly amenable to your views

Yeah, I see your same ideas often in the far-right

I just think people don't know econ history outside the US

I study econ at uni so I kinda have to learn this stuff

That's a good point. I don't know about foreign econ at all except for the Austria school

Outside the US as in the history out of the US, not that people outside the US don't learn history lol

Yeeeeeeeeee, Austrian school

I do know foreign history quite well though

And maybe Keynes

But he was a Jewish controlled psychopath of an economist though so I still tend to oppose him.

My phone's dying so I'll jump back on after it charges a bit

Keynes sucks

Cool

Yeah, in Africa, free markets have really helped them make progress (in the areas they actually get applied).