lol

>Pagans have no idea what natural order is
>They literally advocate for preservation of all races and nature in general

and how can he gain wisdom if "A Pagan has no idea what a natural orde ris"

lmao k

I have a beef with pagans

I wonder if folks like augustine and aquinas relying on pagan thought instead of Christian theology given by revelation has anything to do with the departure of the roman church from christian tradition

But Pagans have their beliefs most centered over nature.

Bringing it back: There are way too many lies and baggage about Hitler and his religion to get any kind of unbiased accurate picture on his personal religious beleifs

Enoch : is there a natural order ?

The natural order is the one that God created that we've been steadily wrecking for X+ years

And the one that Jesus set down when he established the Church

Irrelevant to what I said

I don't see how Hitler helped either of these

no, it is very important

so, is there a natural order ?

Yes

I'm asking Enoch

Ah, my apologies

np my lad

of course there is

good

and nobody that doesn't understand Christian theology can understand it properly

do you find any objection to this sentence "there is a divine natural order and another that is surnatural" ?

You don't live in complete ignorant darkness as a non-Christian it should be said of course

divine not to be mistaken with "spiritual"

What exactly do you mean by there being a divine natural order as well as a supernatural

that the natural order is created by God and that it has its laws made by God, and that there is a surnatural order added on top of the natural one by God that decided to freely make that gift to mankind

What would you say this supernatural order is, then?

I have not clear cut definitions of it but it's basically the order that presupposes the natural order (in order to be added to it), a gift of God in order for us to sublimate our nature thanks to His grace and gifts (for example with Adam and Eve that first had the gift of eternal life, then after the Fall, other gifts like the Revelation, the Church, the Sacraments and all the that goes with that)

Because if you agree that Grace is free, God could have created us without giving it to us, and if the natural order has its laws that are willed by God, we would have lived in it without the Revelation and the Church etc, and still, we would have been living in societies since we would have the human nature nonetheless.

being rational animals, we would have exerced this ability to reason, yet without Grace

and we probably would have revered God, even if He would be unknown to us, because by reasoning we can, through His creation, learn that there is a God and that He has some attributes

having a social nature, we would have lived in society without Grace and without the Church, but with the capacity to achieve the Common Good

that's why a Pagan like Aristotle, even if not gifted with Grace, could achieve a good understanding of politics with his reason (but his system was flawed on some things, due to the Original Sin), and that's because he understood things that a Christian like saint Thomas Aquinas went to him in order to develop his (and the Church's) philosophy

in no way then it has been a cause of dereliction of the Catholic Church since the only motivation of Aquinas was Truth

if you say that Monarchy and Theocracy being present in the Scriptures, they are the only forms of ok governments [theocracy is not a prefiguration of anything other than the Church btw] in order to achieve the goal of politics (the Common Good) that could have been achieve without surnature (because we have the human nature and the natural order has an order), you will then be obligated to belittle nature and say that surnature is _needed_ to achieve the natural finality of men

which will make you say that there is a natural-surnatural order that is _one_

which is usually the position of the Orthobros I think (the frontier between the two orders [natural-surnatural] is usually foggy), but also the one of modernists in the Catholic Church

Sounds kinda heretical

what ?