There is a clear difference between cutting off a piece of the body that is mostly under used, and shortening your shins surgically, which btw, can't be done safely to newborns.

If parents wanted to genetically alter their child to be short, during gestation I wouldn't want the government to ban that either.

Its not just botched circumcisions that's a problem, ones that go well also cause problems (and sometimes death in case some aren't aware). They lead to many sexually issues for men, and we don't have enough evidence for me to say with certainty, but we are getting more evidence that its a factor in men's ever growing problem with ED (and other problems that were pointed out).

I would like to say, for a newborn baby who has just come into this world. And one of the very first things you do to that baby boy is cause it horrible pain (like we could not imagine).
Do you not believe this would cause psychological damage? We don't know how much yet, but this often manifest in many issues for a person like @uncephalized said, of fear and trust (as well as others).
Now can humans over come those issues? Sure. But why would you purposely impose that on a human.

I just have yet to see enough evidence showing that a circumcision harms someone's quality of life enough that it justifies the damage caused by giving the govt control over that decision to children of people religiously or otherwise compelled to circumcise.

If it's ok to remove dead tissue, can you remove your child's epidermis?

Micamike, that's a ridiculous comparison and you know it.

Removing the epidermis causes severe pain and increases risk of infection.

Yeah, so is circumcision with shortening a shin bone or amputating the little toe and you know it

No actually the little toe analogy is pretty good.

Yes the shinbones analogy was intentionally hyperbolic.

I would *gladly* trade a joint off my toe to get my foreskin back. No question.

Ok, I wouldn't

I did ask for anyone who wanted to downplay the issue not that they couldn't do so, but at least watch
karen straughan video before doing so..... Oh well

@uncephalized
¿Oh? ¿You rember it then?
And amidst the pain, frustration, confusion, and sudden COLD of birth, this is overwhelming to you?

As to the studies you refrence, I know of a study that proved vaccines caused autism...

As to (*ah shit here he goes again...*) long term outcome, when I was at Camp Devil Dog (not the most austere conditions there were at least three Marines down for penile infections; When I ended up homeless, having been cut probably saved my life (one less thing to go wrong).

Meanwhile... My dad wasn't circumsized as child. He got the procedure *just before* shipping off... To Viet Nam. If Camp Devil Dog can put that much Hell in you, imagine a jungle, with 115% humidity and 112° heat... And no cleanliness in 1ØØ miles.

Thank you, Dad, for sparing me a date worse than just death... But torturous death.
Twice.

Sped Kaczynski

@Shadows Shadows there is a great clip from a former ICMI conference

I linked something from the the ICMI, but if you have any other good ones link it.

@Mandatory Carry
No, I have no conscious memory of the event. As I already said.

My argument does not rely on studies of outcomes, it's merely one more of the many reasons *I* am against the procedure.

There is no increased risk of penile or unrinary tract infections from being uncut. As far as I'm aware it's the reverse; the intact foreskin is actually part of the defense mechanism *against* such infections.

Do you even know the circumcision status of the downed Marines you speak of?

The notion that circumcision saved your life is, frankly, groundless speculation.

Did your dad get the procedure done for some medical reason, or only out of a vague fear that his perfectly functional reproductive system would somehow betray him if he didn't?

Well, you also said *"surgery on my newborn genitals without anesthesia while I screamed in pain and fear, making one of my earliest experiences one of terror, betrayal and suffering,"* so you can see the confusion. (I forgot the word, but there are people with that degree of memory.)
Once again, @uncephalized, you live up to your name; Your understanding of penile infections is less than zero. There has NEVER been an example of a male infected because of a circumsion (under clean conditions it's rare in women, but the real world isn't very clean), and yes, I in fact DO know it saved my life; I knew two guys who developed sepsis and died.
Ah, and @Legalize you asked about this, the best part of having been homeless is the ***LASTING*** damage; I've never been able to shake the entirely psychosemantic itch caused by the scabies infestation.
Just like the infection those guys got became "lasting." (I rember one was a former Marine, his name was Joe. The other one was a drug addict. I never even knew his name.)

"I never even knew his name"

What did he taste like?

Pretty bold of you to assume I won't eat long pig...

@Mandatory Carry yes, I said earliest *experiences*, not *memories*, for that specific reason. I was circumcised, without anesthesia because that is the way the procedure was performed routinely in 1987, shortly after birth. So it was in fact one of my earliest *experiences*.

I'll ask you again: do you have specific knowledge about the foreskins of the Marines you claim were 'down with penile infections'?

It is so fundamentally weird to me that everyone is so defensive of a procedure that involves the ritual mutilation of the genitals of newborn infants.

Not me

Sorry, not *everyone*

but a pretty large contingent

I didn't mean it to discount your point

No, I was being hyperbolic and I've already had several people call me on that tonight.

Not worth having to explain myself again over it.

I understand that

@uncephalized have you seen this ?

https://youtu.be/8izzCSRhKXs?t=404

it's a good comparison in justifications

regarding both male/female mutilation from those involved

I haven't but I don't know if I need to.

not long

I spent a pretty good deal of time researching the topic a few years back.

humor me?

Just the timestamp you have it on?