they dont so I assume they cant

you seem to fear that they would pay everyone as little as possible without the minimum wage, but they arent doing it now

?

why isnt EVERYONE paid the minimum wage right now?

Idk

What would happen if we did abolish min wage? My guess is that employers would keep paying their employees the same wages because radically altering their employees wages in either direction would fuck with their finances. In which case the situation would roughly stay the same. Some employers would pay more to undercut competition some wouldn't it would cancel out all for MUH FREEDUMB

Im actually struggling with explaining it without writing like 30 sentences. I think the best ways is by opportunity costs. I dont know what your job is but my guess is that there is some job out there that you would do if you got fired. I dont know if its picking apples mawing lawns or maybe you are some kind of professional. What Im trying to get is there are other jobs out there that you could do. The reason you arent doing them now is probably cause they pay less. So your current employer has to pay you more then all other jobs that you are capable of doing else you would leave.

Employees are a scarce resource and as every scarce resource they have a price

Resources dont become worthless unless you put a minimum price on them.

The labor market is another market, just as, say the market for food. You said your employer would like to pay you as little as possible. You are correct of course but we are all trying to pay as little for food as we can but that doesnt mean we can go to the grocer and give him 1 cent for a steak. He wouldnt sell it for that little because there are other people out there that are willing to pay more for it. Its the same with your work. Your employer cant come in tommrrow and offer you 1$ an hour for your work because there is someone out there who is willing to pay you more.

tl;dr: selling your labor to an employer is still subject to the laws of supply and demand

All of this I'm fine with and agree with, I just think this is a non issue. Theres no way on god's green earth that the min wage could be abolished, pragmatically we should vote on keep it small

If its abolished that's fine I think I'll be unaffected, if it stays that's fine too I'm already unaffected

but it harms poor ppl

But I hate that it goes up and up and up and up and up

as long as the minimum wage is lower than your wage your job wont be effected as much, but it sucks for people who could only find work under the minimum wage

It screws over anyone whose market value is below the minimum. And the higher you make it the more people that includes.

and those below wont get training on the job, the only thing that would allow them to get a higher pay in the long run

Jon seems to just be arguing that it isn't pragmatic to abolish the minimum wage, even if it's a smart thing to do

I'd argue that its the right thing to do

Pragmatic probably isn't the right word. Just the public perception of such an act wouldn't be viewed favorably

Nothing that is morally right is politically easy to get through congress

Even if it's good for everyone involved to abolish it, so many people are convinced that a minimum wage is helpful that you'll be painted as badevilwrong and it'll never happen. But that's kind of irrelevant to the debate depending on how principled you want to be

But what is politics for if not to use political capital to get just laws in place?

Politics = poly meaning many and ticks meaning blood sucking insects

My main point and then I'm done is, if you want to abolish it go right ahead and try, I personally think it will never happen. It would do you and everyone else better to work within the system that we have now. ripping it out completely I think would A. cause more problems than it fixes or B. Change nothing and the status quo continues as if there still is a min wage albeit a phantom one.

Signing off.

@Clive "The latter half of this statement can be addressed by a never rising minimum wage since these are reactions to an ever rising minimum wage. Forcing a static min wage for entry level jobs and transitory jobs **would free up funds for higher paid jobs** that require exp and education."

How? Explain how this does anything of the sort.

"I'm confused, if you wanted more than 6.50 why did accept that particular job"

Because that was the best he could get with the skills he had, and the alternative was to make no money at all. Not complicated.

"Get training so you can get a better job."

You are defeating your own argument here. Entry-level jobs paying very little can still help people pay for the training they need to get the better job. They also may serve as that training themselves--but if the employer is not allowed to pay someone very little during their training period, then they won't offer that opportunity at all.

"who determines worth of what a company pays its employees? I know what determines prices=markets and such, but who determines employee compensation"

Labor is a commodity like anything else. There is a market for labor. The price of labor is set by the balance between the prediction of the employer as to how much they can pay for the labor based on how much they anticipate the worker will add to their bottom line, and how much the worker is willing to accept. It's a price negotiation like any other.

I'm tired of being wrong so I forfeit

"Tis now your sand box, explain what happens beside shady employers saying "okay you get paid $1 an hour now""

Because very few people would choose to work for that little money. That company will face a shortage of workers and will have to raise their wage in order to attract the labor they need in order to produce their product or service. The company down the street that is offering a $5 starting wage will attract more workers, and overall the market will decide on the equilibrium labor price for that particular job that leads to the highest profit for the employer.

"The price of labor is set by the balance between the prediction of the employer as to how much they can pay for the labor based on how much they anticipate the worker will add to their bottom line, and how much the worker is willing to accept. It's a price negotiation like any other" - I was trying to get at this but English is hard

OK bye I guess @Clive

Thank god I no longer work even remotely close to minimum wage. It was frustrating working harder than your peers all the while knowing you're being fed chips. A good life lesson, however. I put in hard work, studied, and now I'm here.

where did the Führer argument go?

My further, more philosophical argument goes like this.

It is perfectly legal to *pay* an institution for the privilege of performing labor. This is what college and trade school is. You pay an institution, they give you tasks to perform, and you do them, because you believe the value you are gaining from the experience is worth more than the money you are paying.

It is legal to work for free, for a non-profit or for your family, etc.

It is also legal to *be paid* to perform labor, but only above the minimum wage.

I'm sure Führer Blonde isn't reading our petty squabble.

So why is it legal to work for anywhere from negative infinity $/hr to zero $/hr, and from minimum wage $/hr to positive infinity $/hr, but *not* legal to work between zero and minimum-wage $/hr?

It makes absolutely no sense.

Y'all are so progressive

???

"This is bad and immoral rip it out"

Said every progressive to American values and build the wall