Mmmmm

@DJ_Anuz just now got to talk to him and he was pretty tired, but his answer (boiled down to what I can remember and paraphrase) was that it's not impossible, but that when he reads the verse about Mary he has always seen it as more of what you mentioned the modern translations use (clingy). It is interesting though so thanks for bringing it up

@Mandatory Carry the sequence of numbers in Hebrew can drastically alter the symbolic meaning.

@DJ_Anuz...
I didn't know that.

Could fill a book...........

or binders

Was that a Mitt Romney reference?

Not that it matters, no.
It was a cheap shot at me... But it was both true and funny. 😉

lol

It was a Mitt reference

and a cheap shot

Mandatory DM me

Both then. 🤣🤣🤣🤣

hello

@Beemann yesterday I did miss your response to what I said. So God is all powerful yet He is also righteous so He is binded by His own nature to not be tyrannical. And He is perfect and He cannot be with sinners. So it's only ultimately a problem created by God if God create Himself and picked all His attributes

Well he can be with sinners if they repent, no? But there's a cutoff for repentance, isn't there?

@ThePortugueseGuy, Jesus came not to rescue the saved but the lost. ¿How would he do that but yo go delibrately looking for them?
*"I never let you down,
"Even when I should..."*

@Beemann @Mandatory Carry
So... I see what I did wrong. God cannot be with unredeemed sinners ( for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Romans 3:23 ESV https://bible.com/bible/59/rom.3.23.ESV ) but for those who believe we will not be unredeemed in the day we are alongside with the Father. Because the blood of Christ redeemed us. (and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, Romans 3:24 ESV https://bible.com/bible/59/rom.3.24.ESV)
So running back to my main point God cannot lie for example.
God cannot NOT do justice. that is why not condemning the sinners was not on the menu. He did somehow allow that Jesus Himself bore our sin and that was good enough for Him. (whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Romans 3:25-26 ESV https://www.bible.com/bible/59/rom.3.25-26.ESV).
I was not doing a point about salvation that's why I didn't bother to detail. But I would never say there is no path to redemption for sinners. If Christ had came to earth to save only the ones who never sinned, He may as well stay at home.

My point was less so about the option for redemption, more so for the cutoff, which I understand to be a point of contention

If the cutoff is when you die, it's inherently unjust.

The largest determining factor in your moral and religious philosophy is the culture you grow up in.

Statistically, over half the world population since the death of Christ have never even heard of his name.

Therefore, over half of God's creations would have a 0 percent chance at redemption, purely because they were born into a culture that wasn't Christian.

And even if they did hear about Christ, if some random dudes came over to you spouting about how you have to believe in their deity or go to hell, would you believe them? Probably not. And if so, why should you expect a Muslim to accept Christ just because they heard of him?

That's a presupposition

He's challenging the notion that God is infinitely just, by the nature of his argument

How can I convince you objectively of something unjust, if you don't believe that throwing people into eternal suffering for the crime of ignorance is unjust?

I think condemning people to the worst possible fate imaginable due to ignorance is probably one of the most unjust hypotheticals imaginable. If you don't agree, then we will just have to agree to disagree.

iirc, if you never heard of christ or god, then your deeds were judged, but it has been a while since i read about this in the bible, so i can't point towards where it says that in the bible

if you deny christ, you deny god, so if you know about god and jesus, and do nothing, then you have sinned, ergo you get send to hell

so there is no fear of ignorance

But are your deeds not judged by a moral system you may not have been privy to, @Avald ?

pretty sure that being a murderer makes you universally reviled across all cultures

I mean what constitutes murder certainly varies

nor are cheaters or thieves liked anywhere

nor is being envious considered a positive character trait anywhere

I would argue it can't be strictly judgement by works because every human has sinned so no one's works would be sufficient

Kind of the whole point of Jesus' death

the thing is, ignorance does count for something, but once you know of jesus and his sacrifice, then you are considered liable for ignoring the message

afaik, you need to be a good person

Bible's a lot more restrictive than "dont murder"

i am going by the 10 commandments

i consider the rest of what the jews had to follow something that the jews had to follow

as the new testament points towards 9 of the 10 commandments, by saying love god above all and love your neighbor like yourself

Well according to Jews, everyone else only has to follow Noahide law