I think these same people would always have been like this no matter. The difference is the target and consequences.

It’s not circular. If it isn’t God, then it is something else. That’s not circular

"People without religion have X problem
But religious people have that problem
They weren't religious (or the right kind)
How so?
Well they had that problem"
Is how it reads to me

I would say the issue is meaning, and while religion *can* solve that problem, it doesn't always

I don't know about other people, but my point is that the things people are putting in the place of religion seem to be government based. Things that tend to lead to mass graves on an industrial scale. Religion has it problems, but it can be managed. Government based worship lead to massive death. seem like an easy choice to me.

And I'm not religious

The point is not that religious people can’t get crazy with things like social justice or socialism. The idea of putting idols before God is not an alien concept in Christianity. What that means is that a Christian is putting something else in his or her life above God. This means that at the time the Christian is We’re shipping something other than God

Yeah, there’s truth to that.

But that comes back to "the issue isn't lack of religion". If someone can be a Christian and fall for idolatry, then Christ is not the wholesale solution to idolatry

It's ultimately an issue of meaning and despair, which *can* be solved in this way but it isn't the only way, nor is it a surefire way

I'm not seeing a secular movement solving the situation

Why does it have to be a movement?

Also tbh Peterson's talks have secular applicability

So we don't get a massive movement towards communism and death

What establishes the foundation for secular meaning to life?

Ultimately the individual does, to be blunt. But that's the case either way

So, self worship.

@Beemann Do you think secular people lean more towards socialism or individualism?

How is it self worship?
@grant I think it depends on the era, to be perfectly honest

Yay the world’s gonna be full of solipsists

Sounds awesome (not)

Politics has this weird little collectivist/individualist push/pull

On a weird sorta off topic note

Isn’t LaVeyan Satanism or whatever it’s called supposed to be focused on the individual

Why is still overwhelmingly overrun with socialist cunts

They’re _already_ pretty much worshipping themselves and the “base humanity represented in Satan”

@Beemann I do not. I think the numbers show secular people clearly lean towards socialism. Doesn't mean some don't lean towards individualism. If a larger number don't move towards individualism we get socialism/communism and death. Hence, we need a secular movement towards individualism.

What I think your average person wants is enough space to do their own thing without being isolated

So Nietzsche?

Doing their own things means other people pay for their crap apparently.

You can see that even amongst socjus tbh. They want people to let them be genderfluid otherkin, but they don't want to be otherkin on their own

Sometimes it means wanting to have other people pay for your stuff yes

Is that why transgender are demanding I suck their dick? they want to be left alone.

It’s like they want to be a part of something bigger than themselves but they can’t establish any real meaning because there’s no foundation for their it.

They want to be able to do their thing without the negative effects of a thing

They clearly do not want to be isolated

hmm so socializing their bad decisions. so much individualism

Well I think they haven't been presented with a convincing case that it is a bad decision

Oh because they also demand anyone questions it be shut down. more individualism

Individualism cannot argue against self harm effectively.

And what all powerful being do they demand do these things? Praise be government.