but before then it was not capitalism

so then where do we disagree again?

I guess that a government controlled centrally planned economy is capitalism now

hey have I ever told you about the glorious capitalist USSR?

we were arguing about when capitalism began

what does china have to do with itt

china was definitely not capitalist back in the days of the emperors

government fucking controlled all of the property so that they could please the gods

so do you still believe capitalism started before the late enlightenment or not?

it's hardly capitalism if there's no private property and no free markets

When was there capitalism before then?

***furious typing***

Personal property is not private property

^

the farmer that owns his tools is not a capitalist

if you use it yourself then it is by definition not private property

and in the medieval period famers didn't own their land, they rented it and payed part of the harvest as rent

he doesn't

he works his own land

well if we're looking at before the enlightenment then they're probably all unpaid serfs

because his feudal lord lent it to him for that exact purpose

such as...?

then where was capitalism?

***furiously googles for "places that did not have feudalism"***

what specific civilization practiced it in what time period?

it is not

it very clearly isn't

nothing we do is natural, farming wasnt natural, cities weren't natural, the natural argument is transparent deflection

capitalism does many things well, nobody denies that

but it didn't evolve by itself

humans made it

^

not because they were trying to or because of some invisible force that drives them to want coca cola, it's just how history played out

there was no capitalism without laws put in place by the state to do things like establish currencies and property deeds

that's not what capitalism is either

If you make something with your own tools and sell it for money, that is not a capitalist market exchange

most people working on farms were serfs

they did not get paid, they recieved food and shelter and protection

what little money they got was from selling goods they created

Most places until the enlightenment yes