Message from @Eoppa

Discord ID: 623686768872390677


2019-09-18 01:02:35 UTC  

well I don't know what you mean about "pure act"

2019-09-18 01:02:40 UTC  

i have never seen the argument presented this way lol

2019-09-18 01:03:29 UTC  

Well this was Aristotle and Aquinas' presentation, the passage normally cited in the Summa is just an offhand comment basically compared to the actual theology of it

2019-09-18 01:04:37 UTC  

Pure act is something that fundamentally is the ultimate actualizer of potential, which holds no potential in itself, ie immutability of some sort.

2019-09-18 01:05:33 UTC  

This still seems a lot like the first mover argument

2019-09-18 01:05:36 UTC  

just worded differently

2019-09-18 01:05:38 UTC  

It is

2019-09-18 01:05:45 UTC  

This is the original argument

2019-09-18 01:05:50 UTC  

..

2019-09-18 01:05:51 UTC  

The Prime mover

2019-09-18 01:05:58 UTC  

which in turn

2019-09-18 01:06:04 UTC  

bares a lot of similarity to kalam

2019-09-18 01:06:08 UTC  

No

2019-09-18 01:06:09 UTC  

ok thats why i was confused

2019-09-18 01:06:14 UTC  

Kalam is about per accidens

2019-09-18 01:06:16 UTC  

o

2019-09-18 01:06:24 UTC  

Aquinas is an Aristotelian

2019-09-18 01:06:29 UTC  

Kalam is Arab

2019-09-18 01:06:40 UTC  

well I suppose the next step is to prove that the prime mover is God

2019-09-18 01:08:11 UTC  

Well the next 36 steps are a brief proof to prove it's immutable, eternal, incorporeal, immaterial, perfect, fully good, omnipotent, omniscient, and intelligent

2019-09-18 01:08:33 UTC  

Brief in that each step could be expanded to a whole other 50 steps

2019-09-18 01:08:45 UTC  

If we really wanted

2019-09-18 01:09:29 UTC  

Let's take immutability, as we already touched on that, pure act cannot change

2019-09-18 01:09:41 UTC  

As it has no potentiality to actualize

2019-09-18 01:09:42 UTC  

God *cannot* do something?

2019-09-18 01:09:47 UTC  

Wrong

2019-09-18 01:09:51 UTC  

Doing is act

2019-09-18 01:10:04 UTC  

o ok continue

2019-09-18 01:10:05 UTC  

Being changed is potency

2019-09-18 01:11:22 UTC  

ah better question

2019-09-18 01:11:26 UTC  

could I not pull something out of my ass

2019-09-18 01:11:29 UTC  

that has all those properties

2019-09-18 01:11:36 UTC  

No?

2019-09-18 01:11:39 UTC  

and how are these properties only limited to the Christian God

2019-09-18 01:11:41 UTC  

sure i could

2019-09-18 01:12:05 UTC  

Well it excludes Hinduism, and all polytheistic religions

2019-09-18 01:12:20 UTC  

Any religion like pagans who think the Gods are corporeal or material

2019-09-18 01:12:42 UTC  

But at this point you cannot be an atheist

2019-09-18 01:13:49 UTC  

So far all you established is that there is a pure act

2019-09-18 01:14:07 UTC  

And it's necessary ramifications

2019-09-18 01:14:19 UTC  

Immutability, unity, etc