Message from @BoleslawBierutLover
Discord ID: 334923436088492043
They see both as theives
A job is a voluntary agreement between employer and employee.
That "surplus labor" that lefties like to say is stolen is that of the person who puts effort into running a business, and fronts the financial risk to create one
@Apophis False, you ignore that somebody who does not own the means of production and had no initital resources has absolutely no choice but to sell his labor power to somebody above him
No, he has the choice not to, but he'll deal with the consequences of not actually working to survive
the employer offers a voluntary alternative to inevitable starvation
It isn't the question of working, it s the question of being subject to somebody else's expoloitation
as workers do not get the value of their labor
A choice having consequence does not make it not a choice. It isn't exploitation
Yes it is
Yes they do, they get what they voluntarily agreed was their labor's value
But they do not have a choice
they must sell themselves to a capitalist
Yes they do
They can choose to face the consequences of refusing to contribute to something
That is not much choice, be exploited here or here. Talk to anybody who actually works because you clearly don't, nobody fucking likes their job
@Apophis People want to contribute something they actually want to it isn't about being lazy you retard
*I can't actually disprove so I throw ad hominems and non-cited, false consensus anecdotes*
I just did
I said people must sell themselves to a capitalist. They are subject to them, that is not a free choice
And as such they need to pay their workers less than their value, that is exploitation
Capital is the measure of contribution to society. If one does not contribute, then they should not freely recieve the property of those who do
Smh, but they must contribute to a capitalist, somebody profiting off their labor.
@Apophis join vc of this server you have so much misconceptions I cannot type this
Yes, and capitalists make their money providing goods and services to those who need or want them
I don't *do* voice chat
Than we are done here
Fine.
@Apophis Get a job please.
Don't critisise people who contribute when you yourself do not
That's not how leftists define a capitalist. Which is fine.
Maybe ask around for some books
Or something
Right, it's not like I work to provide the internet I'm talking to you with @BoleslawBierutLover. Quit your ad hominem bs
>Capital is the measure of contribution to society.
What about volunteering or unpaid work? It is a bit cynical to say all contributions are reducible to creation of capital. It is not mandatory and when someone else takes the credit for you work, that's exploitation also.
Alright, you can choose not to accept capital for work. As a proponent of voluntary charity, I'll concede that, but in general that claim stands. They've contributed labor, or goods, or whatever it may be, and that causes them to get capital
hence why those the consumer favors get more
So it is possible to do unpaid work. There is not a necessary relationship between work and capital. Therefore your statement that capital is a measure of contribution is arbitrary and assumes something that is not inherent in the nature of labour. Capital is optional result of labour, among many things. You are putting too much weight on the assumption that all society ought to be run this way. This is called ideological bias.
there is a relationship between work and capital, if some wish to not take any form of capital for their work that's fine, I've nothing against that. But people are generally compelled to make a profit, and it's through labor, be that as a business owner or as an employee of a business that satisfies the consumer, that that capital is made. Therefore, while work can be done without making capital, capital cannot be made without doing work.