isn't that like a contradiction

no

it didnt rlly make sense tho

idk wat he was referring 2

An good example would be something like a vaccination which causes some slight pain but is beneficial for preventing further pain down the road.

still inflicting pain

Yes it may sound strange but in this case causing pain can significantly lessen pain and give the opportunity for more pleasure in the future.

🤯

💪

<:chad:793675087064465449>

it doesn't sound strange at all, it just sounds strange within your moral framework

It really shouldn't. My approach seeks to minimize pain and maximize pleasure. Sometimes as is the case with the vaccination causing some slight pain minimizes pain enough to be useful.

if pain can be beneficial and pleasure harmful, that should point towards a more fundamental value than pleasure vs. pain

Pain is useful when it maximizes pleasure to a great enough extent in the long term. Pleasure can be bad if it increased pain to greater degree in the long term.

This still follows my original idea as it minimizes pain and maximizes pleasure in the long term

what if maximising pleasure is a self-detonating concept because you need psychologically to feel pain, and only feeling pleasure numbs your ability to feel pleasure

Well in that case their is a lack of pleasure and likely some pain involved meaning that I would not want that to happen.

it is not a coherent concept

When you don't simplify it to much I think it is perfectly coherent.

Some of it seems a little paradoxical at first but I personally think that for the most part it is pretty coherent.

you started this by saying pain should be abolished

To the most optimal extent possible. Maximizing pleasure and minimizing pain must be done at the optimal balanced level.

It is possible I was being a little sloppy with my language earlier but I do think that pain should be abolished to the greatest extent possible to the point that it starts to damage peoples capacity to feel proper pleasure.

the optimal level of pain is right at your limit

there's a technical term for it that escapes me right now

the limit being the treshold between manageable and unmanageable

@BigJim why?

Excess of pleasure can be harmful

Equally like lack of pain

If an excess of pleasure causes a large amount of pain then I oppose it as it is creating pain.

If a small amount of pain maximizes pleasure in the long term then I may support it.

<:thinkingsuicide:793674864619683840>

You no like?

What basic level goal informs your political views then?

hes a utilitarian

the expansion of my collective's material conditions

Who is a utlilitarian

you

you literally defined utilitarianism here lol

and that is not the basis of liberalism

Cool