If someone asked me to renounce either my faith or my country, I'd renounce country. But that is wholly irrelevant.

@Thomas american principles are bad

america is built upon the enlightment and the enlightenment was a mistake

Then why should we support its traditions? Its heritage? If it's founded exclusively on heresy, then why should we even wish to preserve the traditions of such a thing?

its not exculsive, but its important to realize that americana has its flaws and thus something that goes against it inst exactly horrible

conservatism based on just remkaing the past cant happen we can only build a better future

Wouldn't that be considered putting primacy into a nation over God?

?

If you're trying to culturally preserve something that is deemed rhetorically toxic to the universal faith, would that not be considered heretical?

@here Anyone? I'm not trying to debate. this is messing with my head and I don't know if I should even support America as an idea anymore.

I mean I'm serious, we shouldn't have free speech as it pertains to ungodly behavior, we shouldn't have freedom of religion, we shouldn't have separation of church and state. All these things are against Catholic ideas and and principles. And yet as American traditionalists we fight to preserve them. What's more the people who made the country, were by definition heretics.

Why should we wish to preserve this idea, this nation at all?

I've been thinking about this very issue a lot lately, it's a complicated question that will be difficult to solve, further complicated by the fact that the 'overton window' is so far to the left right now. Until then, we could start by considering that America should be loved more as a people and land, and less as a creed, idea or ideology.

One source we can gain some insight is Pope Leo XIII's encyclical *Testem benevolentiae nostrae*, which addresses this topic to an extent.

But the ideas go hand in hand *with* the people and the land.

To separate one from the other would be to declassify it as a nation.

A nation is generally defined as a group of people with common ancestry, faith and culture. It wasn't until the 'enlightenment' era that ideology began to play a role in the framework of governance of some nations, until that point the only fundamental idea that persisted was Christendom, rooted in Natural Law.

and America is a product of that enlightenment.

How then could we possibly separate it from that concept then?

The world has been straying from God since long before America was founded... when the people, including the American *people*, come back to God, these liberal ideas will naturally seem much less important than they do now.

Then America will cease to be America.

I'm pretty sure the American people is what constitutes America, not treating the True Faith exactly the same as false religions and allowing degerates to spew their filth in public.

On a side note, I find it highly ironic how many people (not directed at you, just in general) act shocked by the doctrine of papal infallibility yet treat the founders as saints and the constitution as an infallible dogma.

Actually America was not founded on enlightenment. The American revolution was a reactionary movement against the absolute state of Westminster.

It is based on the tradition of liberties originated from medieval England.

Founding Fathers considered the British Empire and Westminster too corrupt, too "establishment", too "progressive".

@Nicholas István If we are to be Catholic, then by doctrine, we should not be proud Americans, or even British for that matter. Those two things contradict each other on a massive scale. If we should not conserve our national values, as they aren't Catholic, then we should not be proud to be Americans.

Pretty good take from the nibba I usually fight people that say America is completely enlightenment but it has some truth

Please pray for my health and my family in every prayer. Life has been throwing some real doosies at us

@Thomas Several thoughts come to mind here -
- This mindset brings to mind a heresy condemned by the Church that places tradition over reason as the as the primary arbiter of truth (not to say that tradition isn't highly valuable).
- Do you believe in religious liberty, free speech and separation of church and state in principal, or only because they play a role in American values?
- If/when America becomes Catholic, it would be far from the first non-Catholic nation or civilization to do so. Did Christianity not conflict somewhat with Roman values? Were the early Christians trying to eradicate what it means to be Roman?

@Nicholas István If I were not American I would consciously condemn these aspects, but as I am, and as my blood is deeply connected to these lands, I find myself defending the fabric of my society that is the constitution. Furthermore it did take away from what it meant to be Roman. Not that it was necessarily even a bad thing. But it did fundamentally change the idea of what it meant to be a citizen and participant of the Roman empire.

And it did pay for it.

And Rome met schism and death for it.

But was replaced.

So you are saying you believe in these liberal ideas not because you believe they are true, but because they are American?

Yano I'm actually arguing with people in the comments of the Styx debate who say that Jesus wasn't real

@Lil Merc post ur stuff then

@🎭🎵 what stuff

basically the guy was saying that there is no evidence for jesus being real, which is one of the most retarded things ive heard in a long time

So post ur response

PRAY FOR ITALY