Message from @The Big Oof
Discord ID: 488136807498776577
Simply put groups are a strategy in which multiple organisms (often with shared genes) cooperate to compete with other groups and organisms. The most successful groups have rules for how group members should interact with each other and when a member breaks the rules the group condemns the rule breaker because he is undermining group cohesion
Even then, you can argue that the real discontent arises with the government
not the nation
By the same logic if a member seeks to undermine the group itself then other members should condemn the rebel for undermining group cohesion
Being loyal to China isn't the same as being loyal to the Communist Party.
oh
this is an even worse point, razor
Mexicans are loyal to neither the United States or the United States Government
Right, so I'm an American
Should I be loyal to other ethnic Americans?
eh, too vague
Supposing I'm a German
should I be loyal to other ethnic germans?
Yes, you should prefer Germans to other people.
However this only applies to groups that are advantageous for the members. If membership is disadvantageous then the benefits of undermining group cohesion may be worth the costs
okay
so
why should I?
Ah now that takes us back to ideals and first principles
Fun stuff
Going back to the American point
Please don't
Are you a nihilist out of curiousity?
can we just presume Americans are a single ethnicity?
Moth
yes @Snakeisninja
Eh, not really
How would you describe yourself philosophically
I'm a utilitarian
Well that's where the disagreement lies.
I am not and I assume razor isnt either
So naturally a utilitarian wont value group cohesion the way razor and I do
But, as I was mentioning earlier...
Why should I place my loyalty in a backwoods farmer with different philosophical, ideological, and religious views than me, though does belong to my nation
Over someone, who is likewise an urbanite and shares a common philosophy, ideology, and religion, but just so happens to be a different ethnicity?
Because the backwoods farmer would most likely defend you if your country was attacked, first of all
@SilverLining if you're a utilitarian you shouldn't.
Easy
Wheras the urbanite would most likely defend his ethnic kin first
All we can do here is debate first principles themselves