Message from @Draco

Discord ID: 508409224456437760


2018-11-03 22:28:13 UTC  

Well essentiallism vs constructivism is based on the question as to whether human nature is constructed or essential

2018-11-03 22:28:16 UTC  

It is just a deconstructionists' way of making things more complex than they are

2018-11-03 22:29:34 UTC  

If you believe that Earth is flat, would that make it flat? If you live like Earth is flat, would it make it? The problem is that sociologists examine different epochs and notions in history and claim that human nature has changed when it may just be that our understanding has changed

2018-11-03 22:29:59 UTC  

Uh

2018-11-03 22:30:01 UTC  

Wow

2018-11-03 22:30:03 UTC  

Okay

2018-11-03 22:30:51 UTC  

human nature is essential

2018-11-03 22:30:57 UTC  

This is really silly, it's not sociology, which is materialist and thus believes in an objective material reality, that thinks existence is subjective

2018-11-03 22:32:03 UTC  

Er reality not existence

2018-11-03 22:32:14 UTC  

Why did you jump to existence? You are the one saying that human nature changes and I am asking you to prove that. You implied that it changes because we have had different notions of what it means to be human. But we have had different notions of what is the shape of Earth too

2018-11-03 22:32:58 UTC  

Like I said, the way humans behave has already been shown to be constructed from their environment

2018-11-03 22:33:09 UTC  

Again, essentiallists do not deny that

2018-11-03 22:33:31 UTC  

Yes, but they believe in a metaphysical, or mystical, human essence

2018-11-03 22:33:38 UTC  

Which has never been shown to exist

2018-11-03 22:35:03 UTC  

Social constructivists claim that human behaviour is acquired, which can be shown to be false by just proving that genetic makeup affects behaviour and passes on generationally

You are jumping the gun. What is your criticism of essentialism? Is it that human nature has changed, or that human nature has not shown to be real?

2018-11-03 22:35:52 UTC  

You've mischaracterizing constructivism

2018-11-03 22:36:25 UTC  

Since constructivist don't claim that the material body one has doesn't influence the ideal

2018-11-03 22:36:29 UTC  

Obviously it does

2018-11-03 22:36:39 UTC  

What is that ideal?

2018-11-03 22:36:44 UTC  

Uh

2018-11-03 22:36:44 UTC  

Is that existant?

2018-11-03 22:36:46 UTC  

The mind

2018-11-03 22:36:52 UTC  

Which is material

2018-11-03 22:36:57 UTC  

on materialism

2018-11-03 22:37:06 UTC  

It arises from the material

2018-11-03 22:37:18 UTC  

Doesn't mean it has to be material itself

2018-11-03 22:37:37 UTC  

Are you an epiphenonmenalist?

2018-11-03 22:37:39 UTC  

All materialism means is that the material is a first order reality

2018-11-03 22:38:14 UTC  

You cannot claim that a second order reality is more ideal than first order reality

2018-11-03 22:38:41 UTC  

Lord

2018-11-03 22:39:15 UTC  

The ideal is subject and secondary to the material

2018-11-03 22:40:33 UTC  

I don't think you know what "ideal" means. Ideal =/= mental

2018-11-03 22:41:12 UTC  

It is the realm of the mind, consciousness and *ideas*

2018-11-03 22:42:37 UTC  

The question of idealism vs materialism is the question as to weather matter is an extension of, created by or subject to the mind, or the other way around

2018-11-03 22:48:03 UTC  

You seriously are using terms very loosely. Materialists do not believe that ideal is second level reality. They believe that it does not exist.

2018-11-03 22:48:37 UTC  

Mostly that is the case

2018-11-03 22:49:20 UTC  

Well, there might be few exceptions but if we are talking about fringes then it is very hard to use any terms without defining them

2018-11-03 22:49:22 UTC  

It is a capitulation by materialists to even offer ground to mind dependence

2018-11-03 22:51:29 UTC  

The social constructivist can only differ with essentialist if he claims that the ideal human nature changes. But either he does not believe in the existence of ideals or he cannot show that it changes.
We know that social constructivistism is false in the way it is used most often, because we can show that much of behaviour is innate through genetic and biological studies.

2018-11-03 22:52:01 UTC  

However, if the constructivist wants to just claim that humans change, then there is no disagreement with Essentialists as Essenetialists do not deny that

2018-11-03 22:55:50 UTC  

Marx would call that vulgar materialism Draco