Message from @Nester

Discord ID: 355834905118244874


2017-09-08 21:53:56 UTC  

what would your conclusion be about this hypothetical muslim sect?

2017-09-08 21:54:18 UTC  

There are a lot of false hadeeths. Most hadeeths are false.

2017-09-08 21:54:38 UTC  

And the sources are the same, so it doesn't make sense to discount the hadeeth but not the quran.

2017-09-08 21:54:43 UTC  

right, exactly

2017-09-08 21:55:02 UTC  

but let's pretend some Sect X decided to do exactly that

2017-09-08 21:55:06 UTC  

how would you think about that sect

2017-09-08 21:55:14 UTC  

It's discouraged to study some hadeeth generally

2017-09-08 21:55:22 UTC  

As there's a lot of false hadeeths

2017-09-08 21:55:42 UTC  

Depending on their reasoning, they might be apostates.

2017-09-08 21:56:25 UTC  

let's say their reasoning was, "our current religious leaders don't explicitly endorse its reading, therefore it is bad to read it, even though we believe the document is genuine"

2017-09-08 21:57:43 UTC  

What does it mean for religious leaders to not endorse its reading? Hadeeth is essential. What they would do is set out the real ones from the false ones, the real ones would be followed as gospel.

2017-09-08 21:58:48 UTC  

For example, the quran would tell you to pray.

2017-09-08 21:59:00 UTC  

well, exactly as I said. Let us say this Sect X of muslims had religious leaders that strongly discourage the reading of the hadeeth, yet believe the whole document to be authentic, and therefore the religious adherents feel like it's some kind of sin or apostasy to even open the hadeeth

2017-09-08 21:59:02 UTC  

But the hadeeth would tell you how you'd go about doing that.

2017-09-08 21:59:22 UTC  

Without hadeeth, and tradition, you wouldn't know how to pray.

2017-09-08 21:59:59 UTC  

these people don't know how at all

2017-09-08 22:00:10 UTC  

in fact almost none of the adherents at this point even know the hadeeth exists

2017-09-08 22:00:32 UTC  

That's an unprecedented situation.

2017-09-08 22:00:41 UTC  

There isn't a hadeeth document. There are compilations.

2017-09-08 22:00:46 UTC  

let's say that occurred to the letter. what would you think?

2017-09-08 22:00:52 UTC  

Various compilations exist

2017-09-08 22:01:01 UTC  

What would I think of who? The leaders?

2017-09-08 22:01:07 UTC  

They would be apostates.

2017-09-08 22:01:26 UTC  

The followers, depending on how much they know and their intentions.

2017-09-08 22:01:45 UTC  

so the leaders would be apostates

2017-09-08 22:01:59 UTC  

Either their leaders would shoulder the blame and they excused, or they would be apostates as well.

2017-09-08 22:02:06 UTC  

The leaders definitely would be.

2017-09-08 22:02:10 UTC  

what would distinguish the one from the other

2017-09-08 22:03:03 UTC  

One being genuinely misled.

2017-09-08 22:04:16 UTC  

but let us say they know of the existence of the hadeeth also, and also believe that it is a genuine document - in fact, they publicly affirm that very fact twice a year in a big meeting.

2017-09-08 22:05:24 UTC  

But don't follow it?

2017-09-08 22:05:41 UTC  

yes

2017-09-08 22:05:52 UTC  

and kick out anyone who does, and call them apostates

2017-09-08 22:06:09 UTC  

and become suspicious of anyone who so much admits to owning any hadeeth compilations

2017-09-08 22:06:22 UTC  

Not following some hadeeth would make you an apostate, not following some hadeeth would just make you a sinner, not following some hadeeth isn't ideal but you wouldn't have sinned not following it.

2017-09-08 22:06:39 UTC  

But rejecting it wholesale, while thinking it should be followed, would be apostasy.

2017-09-08 22:07:07 UTC  

They would be apostates in your scenario.

2017-09-08 22:07:47 UTC  

from where I am sitting, they would be horrible followers of the prophet if they believed they had a huge body of work directly from the people who followed the prophet in person, yet did not diligently read it and try to abide by it

2017-09-08 22:08:49 UTC  

They wouldn't be followers at all, if they're not actually following him.

2017-09-08 22:09:19 UTC  

that's right

2017-09-08 22:09:20 UTC  

They'd just be placating their communities