Message from @Soup Can Sam
Discord ID: 621784095109939221
But I don’t think being a conquering power is exclusive with isolationism
Because it still means you’re not negotiating or participating in the international community
No, the US was isolationist because they didn't want to be embroiled in WWII
There are different reasons for becoming isolationist, and it is not synonymous with fascism by definition
And I am arguing by the definition and not an incorrect interpretation of it
You cannot be isolationist and fight every country around you.
Yes the US was isolationist and the liberals dragged the US out of isolationism
The fascists in the US (silver legion) wanted the US to remain so
Sticking to an old dictionary definition is an etymological fallacy
The modern usage of “nationalist” is synonymous with fascist
Conquering everyone is isolationist
It’s acting totally unilaterally
But that was just one aspect. You can throw that one out if you disagree
I'm going to respond to this in about 2 hours
Sure take your time.
Mobile isn't exactly the optimal debating device
Haha no rush, you can dm too if it gets crazy here
Ok so first off I'm going to have to object to the term "entomological fallacy" itself, because this is something that has an entirely subjective an nebulous basis. Words are made to have very explicit meaning and are often tied to an expansive history, like the word "fascism" in the context here referring to an ideology that first came around in the '20s (so essentially what you were referring to earlier). Nationalism in and of itself is an ideology centered simply around the support of your nation's interests. Fascism, on the other hand, involves an authoritarian government or regime that forcefully suppresses people, along with a complete rejection of democracy and a lack of individual rights; the only thing that is intrinsically shared with nationalism is the support for the nation and the view that your nation is superior, though this varies in degree as well. Nationalism often does lead into Fascism but it also does not, like with the United States in WWII (and even though there may be fascists in the United States, this does not mean that the United States itself was a fascistic society or even that the majority of people were). With this in mind, to synonymize the two is fallacious as there are very clear criteria in the definition of the word "fascism" in order for something to be counted as such. The conflation of these two terms you engaged in prior is actually an example of another fallacy, that being a false equivalency.
Note that I am not giving any positive opinion towards either thing though, I am opposed to both.
The term left and right are totally dependent on context and public perception. Something considered radically left in US could easily be considered right or center in Sweden.
And it wasn't liberals that pushed the US away from isolationism, it was mostly the work of progressive and those two things are very very different.
Shit, I forgot about that as well. Political spectrums vary from country to country, so reporting of another countries political dynamics will likely have the politics of that country applied to it.
*realized I said "entymology" instead of "etymology" lol
Also, isolationism has a very specific definition as well, that being a policy that involves a country not involving itself with affairs with or between other countries. Quite literally the opposite of the Nazis.
So, an etymological fallacy is relying heavily on the derivation of a word rather than its current usage
I really think that’s what you’re proposing here.
But nationalism, remember is devotion to the “nation” not to the “state”
What I am opposing is the usage of a definition that does not belong to a specific term simply because of popular use.
While those things have become largely synonymous, even going back to the original definition of nationalism, we’re not talking about a fervent devotion to the state, but to the culture, and a movement to align culture with state
Liberal and progressive were certainly synonymous in the 30’s and 40’s
And I would also argue they’re largely synonymous now
Is it your belief that FDR was not a liberal president?
I would argue they're not, and conflating terms is basically going to muddy the waters to the point where an argument here is pointless
Ok, we can get to that in a bit, let me just finish responding to your points
I concede the isolationist point, but I’ll revise my list then
And replace it with a disregard for treaties and preference for working unilaterally
Except that they are not synonymous. I gave very specific definitions for these terms, of which are corroborated in dictionaries and search engines today. Are these sources of information not better to go off on instead of popular, often misinformed usage?
Of which terms
Fascism and Nationalism (and I guess by proxy Isolationism, but that's not exactly related right now).
Specifically, fascism in the context of the ideology prevalent in countries during WWII.
I think your definition of fascism is incomplete