An "intelligent" person will observe from a distance, or find a way to see if its a threat

YEah I think people are naturally rotton and will naturally be rotton if they aren't taught better. They aren't naturally good. That's sort of rooted in philoso9phers like Rousseu and I just don't see humans that way anymore.

Then again, theres also pathological altruism

Sociopathy and narcissism--the modern way of saying "evil" I think--is normal in humans.

We're not naturally "good" at all. And as a people we're now so poorly educated we're lost. We have no metaphysical certainties, and a civilization that lacks those will be rolled over by one that has some.

Well that kinda fixes itself by making humans dependent on society.

Where it self regulates by getting rid of deviants, and rewarding productive behaviour.

But also, history has kinda a pattern where a society that gets too large will start reverting back to a savage society.

I think collaboration is the reason humanity got this far. It's innately within us, or innately within society, that collaboration is beneficial

How I see it is people naturally have a tribal mentality

They want the benefits for the "tribes" they associate themselves with, so

Well, its just so that its not humans are rotten, humans are rational, and rational prioritizes self survival over all others.

For some people it could just be themselves and their family

Without a shared set of values and principles, people do not cohere, and we reduce to tribalism and family--which isn't necessarily bad, unless you have no clear tribe or good family, in which case you're really lost and will search everywhere.

And if you make it rewarding to benefir the society, well, humans self regulate to continue benefiting fro societyt

Well humans find a purpose in life. Whether it be serving a force relligious or institution, serveing their society, or even their family.

I disagree Max, people can have the same values but different ideas on how to achieve fulfilment of these values

That's where most division comes from these days

Which... is why you get psycopaths. Who have no ties to anyone, making them more "selfish" than the average person

Division comes from refusal to accept differences in values

A left-wing individual and a right-wing individual both want a good economy. Left-winger thinks this is done through redistribution of wealth, right-winger thinks this is done through de-regulation and promoting free trade. This causes a division

The smallest minority is the individual

I don't see difference in values as much of an issue as different ways to reach the end goal

If you cannot protect the individual you cannot claim you stand for the minorities.

But if you cannot protect groups that individuals belong to, that they want to belong to, you aren't really protecting the individual. This is why I find both hyper-individualism and hyper-collectivism both horrifying. It's why I'm not a libertarian anymore, OR a socialist, though I get accused of both. 😛

Thats just being against extremism in general.

Or someone being a moderate. Whats there to argue?

A good collective protects the individual

That's the idea of constitutionalism and generally law- the collective enforce and act by rules that allow them to coexist as individuals

And generally benefit from one another through that.

Trade? Exchange of services? And a force to ensure it runs fair and square.

But of course, relligion has a part as well. In a time when regulation was hard as hell to enforce.

Even now, you cant see everything

Right. Then you run immediately into the "Who Watches the Watchmen?" question, which hasn't changed in thousands of years. I think we have yet to show ARistotle or Plato wrong onthese things.

Wait what? WHo watches a god?

Religion generally came about when people needed a way to enforce rules beyond a single leader, is how a friend explained it to me

Yes, if you plot to assassinate a king, he could be none the wiser and you'd get away with it

But if God's watching? Fuck nah

Or also to uplift a population to act beyond what they were at the time

"Religion generally came about when people needed a way to enforce rules beyond a single leader, is how a friend explained it to me" -- yes this is a common belief. It's a faith-based, non-scientific belief, but it's a belief.

Concepts like hygine, decent behaviour, and more specifically, stuff like population controll and food prepping