interestingly, capitalism allows for the introduction of competing microsystems, including communes

So states that enforce obligation to others are good?

What about the 10s of millions who died under stalin?

@>_ If they progress the historical dialectic, yes

@Cody what about them? you didn't really make an argument or anything

I thought that we agreed forcing obligation to others is not ideal.

@>_ in an ideal society yeah, but we haven't reached that yet

I hope you're not arguing "we will enforce sharing until it becomes willing and compassionate"

because that's how it comes across honestly

So if you are advocating for forced obligation, you are advocating for less then ideal. In your own understanding.

So you are arguing that an ideal society is a society where the individual willingly submits to mob rule?

@>_ I'm advocating for forced obligation in order to accomplish an ideal

However you already know that it is less than ideal.

but your ideal is voluntary action, which is not found at gunpoint

So the ends justify the means?

? ? ? The forced obligation isn't the end point though.

Yes, the ends absolutely justify the means.

if I go to your house every day and demand money from you at gun point, then one day dont pull out the gun, are you a voluntary participant?

Has this debate been a 1 hour troll?

are you "compassionate" now?

The system you are arguing for sounds like extortion to me.

So sacrificing all those people who are unable or unwilling to accept responsibility by putting them through a "forced obligation social structure" is justified in achieving the ideal?

more along the lines of going into my house every day, demanding stuff with a gun, then eventually getting rid of the gun, then eventually not demanding in the first place.

Because it's become natural.

@>_ Yeah, for sure

Wait

Sounds horrible

has this really been a 1 hour troll and this person isn't even socialist?

that's still backed by the threat of force lol

@Beemann not if the state disappears afterward

okay so what happens if I just decide to start hoarding food?

I'm 100% serious. We need extreme violence and a radically unorthodox state if we want to change society.

does nobody enforce the marxist dreamstate?

I argue that sacrificing all of those people in the name of "compassion" is in fact not compassionate. But an Orwellian twist to the word "compassion."

@Beemann not sure why you'd do that, but generally I'm not sure why anybody would care since probably nobody else would

What's the debate about?

I think it was a troll

>you were forced to do this for years
>then we took away the person forcing you to do it
>but you're compassionate now
you're going to have to explain the missing step, because this is the underpants gnomes of politics

@>_ yeah, well I guess in my opinion sacrificing like, a few million people in a revolution is better than letting many millions of people and animals die for hundreds of years in capitalism

I would not be willing to do that

So I guess I die in your society