By the way, anyone want to tell me which president approved China's ascension into the WTO? This was when things really got bad for the US re: trade deficits. Any takers?

Personally I think that NATO should exist, and I believe Trump does as well. However the Europeans must spend 2% of their GDP on actual military power.

It was not Obama

Wasn't even Clinton

W.

Thank you

Is anyone here defending W?

Nope.

Pretty hollow victory then.

I'm just pointing out that Obama wasn't the root of all evil

Obama was the root of Obama's evil.

But he wasn't all that different from Bush II, Bush I, or Reagan

Obama doesn't deserve this vigorous defense. He was completely awful from a foreign policy standpoint. Absolutely no positives whatsoever.

In regards to trade

Bush II was awful for foreign policy too

I know. Trump represents a sea change in the politics of US trade.

And no one is defending him. You are defending Obama. I can't see why.

I am not defending Obama per se. I just took umbrage at the use of the term treason a while back so i felt it necessary to make it clear that Obama was no better or worse than his predecessors when it comes to our current deficit or geopolitical situation.

Obama and W were both loyal to the globalist elites instead of the ordinary Americans who elected them.

Thank you

That's all I wanted to be recognised

Okay, so how do we stop money flowing to the Gulf state men who redirect it to terrorists who kill us?

As Atkins said that was all rather pointless since nobody is defending W.

But no one was calling Bush II a traitor either

I'm an American. That word is extremely charged and I don't treat it lightly.

I think you already started to make the case for calling W's trade policy treasonous.

I don't take it lightly when the government starts attacking the American people, either.

I don't think so at all. I actually believe in the concept that by making the entire "world pie" bigger the US wins even as our relative share decreases. Our problem isn't that we're not making money on a much richer world. No, our problem is that these riches are not being shared well at all. Since I'm not a communist, I'm not sure how better to address that inequity. I think Bush II and Obama struggled with the same issue.

No solution was found

Trump's solution is to maximize our portion of the pie and be damned the size of it

The 'US wins' when the world pie gets bigger only if taken in the aggregate. Wealth inequality actually increases.

Our middle and lower class end up competing with third-worlders.

Who can always undercut them.

That's the challenge

You need to seriously rethink the problem if your premise is that growing the world's pie requires impoverishing the US.

The nation as a whole might get richer, but only the top 0.01% are actually getting that wealth. The tech billionaires.

How do we nurture a bigger world pie and still ensure the US gets more in terms of absolute if not relative value of it?

Agreed, Atkins

I don;t, devpav

We're not responsible for nurturing a bigger world pie.

It's not my responsibility to enrich Africans.