And there is no evidence for your points.

No, it cannot.

I just posted the math

denial in the face of evidence is a liberal trait

be better than that

also note that I state that the universe CAN come from nothing, not that it DOES come from nothing... on the flip side I am being told EXACTLY HOW IT STARTED was a cosmic being speaking things into existence from nothing.

if you define "god" as "the universe" then we can agree. The universe created itself. If you think "god" is a conscious being that has a hand in purposely creating, destroying and designing... then you got problems

And the math is illogical.

An effect must have a cause.

If you look at the complexity of the universe and assume ItS aLl RaNdOm then you have problems.

lol wow.. you guys are fucking morons... we will never agree.. so just let me enjoy my freedom of speech

Here's another way using a different method

It is documented historical fact written down by Jews and pagans that Jesus existed and was crucified. Those same historians wrote most of what we know about the ancient world, and to discount their writing of Jesus means we discount pretty much everything else we know about Rome and Greece

So only an idiot can deny Jesus existence

so the existance of a wandering priest named jesus is proof of god creating the universe? WTF

Notice I said existence, not miracles, divinity etc

there is proof of a muhammad too.. are you saying islam is the right religion as well?

Stop acting like a liberal

you are the one acting like one. Denial of facts, being butthurt, tossing tantrums at my free speech.... everything you do screams liberal

It is also documented historical fact that Christians in the first few centuries were judicially slaughtered en masse by the Roman government, probably around two million total which would be around a third of the Christian population

it is also documented that Ra ruled over egypt

You are the one freaking out at any sensible statement or logical argument

you have shown me no logic though

you say "it has to be" and "just look at existance" but have provided no proof.. only opinion and speculation

I never said it WASNT possible... but you are saying it is the ONLY possibility

We still have written accounts of what happened. An accused Christian was condemned to death, but could be pardoned by denouncing Christianity and reverting back to Roman paganism

Naturally that did happen

I don't believe in your ONLY possibility and understand alternative ideas on the matter that have tangible proof that can be tested

But, that was the exception rather than the rule. Around two million people willingly chose to die horrible and torturous deaths for an idea.

Logically speaking, the universe needs a cause.

It is an effect.

logically speaking, a creator needs a cause too then

Why did those people choose death? It is documented that they died, and that they chose to die. That cannot be denied

No.

yes

A cause does not need a cause in of itself.