I am not arguing that NML is a fleshed out set of rules for a society

its a skeleton

so try it

how do you create a functioning society without using ANY of the precepts of NML

not obeying the 5 precepts means you commit suicide

yes

literally by definition

Precept 1: Preserve Life

so you are admitting that precept 1 is necessary

on a macro scale, 1 person not having children doesnt matter, but on a micro scale you will be a biological failure

both

again

theres no difference between the individual and the society

thats not what i mean and you know it

i think you do and just refuse to admit you understand

consider the macro scale then

what if the entire society does what you do

it dies out

it fails

then you literally do not belong in any society at all

By definition

Success is superior to failure by definition

think sports

A first place swimmer is a superior swimmer to a second place swimmer

i mean

the holoshoahgorilioncaust didnt happen

yeah

this is more than the utilitarian philosophy that is might makes right

lets say the six bazillion did die

nazi germany then would have been in violation of NML

its like... directed utilitarianism

whoever can preserve life better, have children better, etc

is the superior society

can you give an example of a failed society that is better than a successful one?

also, what are YOUR metrics for a society's health?

Fuck no

we violate every single one of the 5 precepts

meh i walked into that and saw it coming a mile away

do i consider any dead society to have failed though?

is a dead man a failure if he followed NML, had kids, etc

life cannot be preserved forever, with a man or with society

human nature seems to require it

also, i dont view nazi germany as a successful society

they started a massively destructive war for revenge

a dead society is not by definition a failed one though

obeying NML is a success of itself, and it enables other forms of success

but all things come to an end

and most dead societies had abandoned the precepts

and that precipitated their demise

typically more material forms

high culture

the arts

stonks are fucking bullshit

and what else is there?

it seems like the most successful societies placed immense value on the arts, usually as a form of worship

because as we see even in our own society, Worship God means either religion or money

much of it is somewhat circular yea

because it cant go any more basic in terms of ideas

im saying is that this is one of those things that we have to accept as truth a priori because its impossible to construct an argument more basic

and that comes down purely to what you value

NML is taking the common behaviors of successful societies (or, if you prefer, societies while they were successful) and extracting the commonalities between them

Its no different than the seven basic story plots

you cant apply them to any historical societies (at least the ice cream meme) though

NML works because you can

ok what do you actually think makes a society successful

forget the ice cream meme

serious time

try it

i prefer NML because of its simplicity

its most useful for modern societies because we can use it as a metric for our own health

that sounds like hell

Nothing to work for, nothing to inspire the people to greatness

that sounds like hell

thats a greater evil than war

war is an evil, but not the greatest. I'd rather have a worthy cause to fight and die for than have nothing worth fighting for at all

but war nowadays is just for money and israel

the idea of NML works because it is highly rational

as in

each precept has definite benefits to obeying and obvious disadvantages to not

it is a circular argument because again, you cant go more simple than it

and to use higher level proofs, you have to accept it as at least partially true already

and it doesnt

im just bad at debating

im enjoying the conversation

but a good amount of my points i have had to reason out on the fly such as it is

my main frustration is that you dont actually propose any counter that is on an equal footing

like

your proposed society was orders higher than my basic precepts tho

that still falls within NML prima fasci

*prima facie

if you really consider what all goes into that society, you realize some amount of religiosity is needed

again

i did say prima facie

I mean

its proly immediately obvious that im christian

just cuz aquinas and such

fine haha

atheism is the best example of not worshipping god

because it is the worship of the self

if you want to get really reductionist