@tony1 when do you believe fetus or zygote is a person

yeah

But was just wondering when u thought life begins

or when was a human

dont have full time for debate

@maxtrainboy but do you believe a zygote is a person or cells ?

Ultimately I believe in the rational objective method of sentience

the cells can not think or even respond to pain until around 24 weeks iirc would have to check again, but I personally see those as basic requirements of being a "human"

There is also the viability belief as well, in that before that timeframe it is 100% impossible for the fetus to survive outside of the womb

Medically or not, combining those two is why I'm personally pro choice before those time frames

If you are going to vegetables it is false equivalence

The vegetable, could at least previously think or has the capacity for thought, or even just sentience

As I said though sentience and ability to think are just basic characteristics of being a human

If they are in front of my eyes living and breathing etc, can not objectively say they arent human even if they cant think for themselves

As I said the fetus at that point, has no ability to exist outside of mother's womb

in laymans terms yeah, that and viability

even if it could not think for itself, if it was capable of being born premature and was possible to live outside of the womb I would believe it has human rights

This is from your own article

A major debate centers on the question of whether a fetus perceives pain before a two-step neural pain circuit has formed. Pro-choice lawyers and doctors have argued that the fetus cannot perceive pain until connections exist between the pain receptors in the skin and the thalamus, and connections exist between the thalamus and the cortex. Unfortunately, it is difficult to prove the existence of these connections in living fetuses without hurting the fetus; scientists only consistently observe these connections from outside the womb at 21 weeks post-conception, although they are observed a month earlier in aborted fetuses. Importantly, fetuses show hormonal stress responses to pain during prenatal surgeries performed at 16 post-conception weeks, strongly suggesting a complete pain perception pathway has formed by this time

It still has yet to be scientifically proven on whether or not fetus can react to pain which is literally one of lowest form of though

Pre 20 weeks

Your article is pulling straws at best, which is also why federally this standard still exists

As technology advances I am sure that the 20+week standard will lower

But before then there is no way other than guesses at best for sentience to be proven

Also the baby can not "think" at all, sentience is literally only reacting to pain

I said sentience

I originally said sentience if you scroll up

I agreed to using think in the context of it being a simplified version of sentience

You do realize consciousness or the full ability to "think" does not start until months after the baby is even born ?

Ultimately I believe in the rational objective method of sentience

the cells can not think or even respond to pain until around 24 weeks iirc would have to check again, but I personally see those as basic requirements of being a "human"

Literally scroll up to 23:25

That Is my original ststemnt

Layman terms also means the most basic form

I mean run cause no rebuttal np

You still don't even have an counter argument, if you are stuck with that I said the fetus cant think for itself, babies dont even start to actually think until 3-5 months after being born

and that is basic bio, sentience literally lowers the bar for pro lifers

@Cobra Commander I already explained how vegetables and a unborn fetus are a false equivalence

A person who becomes a vegetable has already achieved sentience prior to becoming in the state that they are.. The fetus has yet to achieve it whatsoever.
Even if somehow the fetus did achieve sentience(which prior to 20 weeks has yet to be medically/scientifically proven to this date ) then next criteria is viability, the fetus is incapable of surviving as it's own entity outside of the womb
Edit: added sentence in ()

Life beginning at conception is also a non argument

Most pro choice are not ignorant to deny basic bio, most cases on where does life begin is a moral/ philosophical argument or more so when is the fetus considered to be a "human"

Yea but that is a different philosophical argument

Does a being that can no longer maintain sentience still exist as a human? Different answers different situation.. If you can be able to abort because of mental retardation should you be able to euthanize people who develop it later in life

False equivalence

Not to mention that in the latter scenarios the vegetable and the retarded person both can viability live outside of the womb,

The fetus can not

As I have stated, it is a dual criteria

Ventilators dont matter, viability is talking about whether the fetus can live medically assisted or not

As that would just be a premature birth

There is no way medically assisted or not for the fetus to survive pre 20 weeks

There is no concrete definition of human, which is why it is a moral or philosophical argument.
Both sentience and viability, are two of the most fundamental and basic characteristics of humanity and are rational

Sentience can be proven scientifically/medically through clear observation or in other cases with electrodes or other methods, viability is actually existing in the physical world as your own entity

There is no denial about a vegetable physically existing

Nobody disregards that fact, it is just at that moment in time, it has not YET achieved it, and is thus not considered a "human" but instead a fetus, or group of cells and thus does not have human rights.
If you are going to argue it is a separate entity , then yes the fetus should be allowed to live on it's own, which again is just a premature birth, it can't do that though.
You can call it seeing with naked eye "retarded" but it is reality

And current standard globally, that standard leaves no debate open on whether or not is a baby or a corpse/ fetus

The slippery slope you keep trying to bring up is also irrational, as medical technology advances, the methods available to doctors and scientists to possibly measure sentience or at the very least have viable births continue outside the womb would trend in the opposite way

The abortion window would actually get lower

There no definition of human though, if you follow biological it is just a homo sapiens sapien yes but it is moral philosophical case

you can split hairs but it becomes same result

Oh I see misread first line

It is scientifically a human yes, but philosophically is the issue

And for your earlier points, I mean majority of animals exhibit"neurological activity", that Is an extremely low standard

If science is what matters then people would never pull plug on vegetables

gay trolls

Kill all homosexuals

begins when a neckbeard runs online and is anonymous

ends when peoples name attached to social handles, that is why need chinese social credit system

No nitro

U poor as fuckk

Hahaha

Braindead tard