amoung povo shits

>a seat
wew lad

and @Deleted User i have no idea why your a neet but it aint the wests fault

no employment, education, training

i like how this is past tense

anyway, point being, lets use this forum as an example

i can do two things at once, im not saying it has an impact on the larger argument

because its fun and im not here not to have fun

anyway, take this forum, you level criticism at the west while claiming to advocate for it, do you believe your actions reinforce the west or undermine it?

if the later, how do you justify your own actions?

unless im correct your position here is against your own interest

i dont think my conception is radical, gercek. that the dominant culture of america, the western and central European states, australia, canada etc is "the west" seems to be the prevailing view. that the culture of those nations includes high concepts, such as the paintings of monet and the music of Beethoven while also including low concepts such as coca cola and miley cyrus

and lemme clarify myself @Deleted User, im obviously still talking to you so despite my banter im valuing your input and im not sure how you get that im labelling you the bad guy. more my direction was that if you want to do drugs, stay at home, masturbate to anime and take benefits thats fine but its a stretch to say western culture forced you to do so

again, not saying you actually do those things

for all i know your very educated and you earn twice what i do

i disagree and so do the artists producing them

i didnt say you have to like ti

im just saying its western

thats fair.

but that culture seems to be thriving

employment is the highest its been in the west, americas unemployment rate has been decreasing year on year since 2010

alcohol and drug abuse, depression, suicide and broken families are in many ways literally first world problems in that theyre only problems that present themselves where there arnt more pressing problems and other cultures seem to be coping with this shift much more poorly

additionally in terms of drug and alcohol abuse the west has made ardent strides and negative birthrates arnt a problem in america

also gercek your being inconsistant

your criticism was low employment, now you accept that its high

either its a problem or its not

correction, sd did

also krille raises the point that much of those numbers are increases in reporting and the availability of better management

today rather than having to sell you child into prostitution because your father is an alcoholic, as is shown as a case in crime and punishment, you can seek help and a divorce

its not common now though

the carthaginians also had prositutes as holy women

we have a family now

how wholesome

which also has the benefit of taking some kids out of the carousel of foster care

!rank

i dont either but i think its better than the alternative of keeping people together who actively hate eachother

baby steps

i dont think keeping a family together who actively hates and is destroying itself is a winning project. I agree that the way divorce is handled could be improved, i agree people could seek more meaningful relationships, im not saying our current position isnt without challenges, but i do believe its the best alternative currently available

not entirely true and accept that its a mitigation, not a solution but prenup

there has to be some pretty substantial argumentation

it has to be established why the assumed conditions of the prenup are invalid, a judge cant just say hocus pocus your prenup is gone

im not aware of the stats but lets remember that in america alone theres, what, 300million people? something doesnt need to be common to happen all the time

and while divorce rates in america last time i checked is edging 50% in australia its 30%

i agree snake but clearly its a tractable problem if analogous countries have a 20% difference

also americas marriage rates are very high actually

which might be a contributing factor

and i think that process is in the works. remember though a policy doesnt need to be good for it to be good policy, just less bad then the alternatives

currently we are developing improvements, but i stress, developing

they dont exist as of yet

slippery slope fallacy mang, i think we accept that there is impetus for change, its unreasonable to expect that the rates of divorce would continue when again theres other nations where its much lower

also i dont think alimony and child support in and of itself is an issue but i agree, custody and visitation reform should be tackled

snake, chill, i said reform should happen

im clearly not accepting it

also your wrong that no political party is talking about it, certainly its not a headline issue but its a present one

especially as a higher female workforce is a thing

theres discussion from both the democrats and republicans thats addressed it, no big moves as of yet but baby steps

a big stumbling block is the public image of mras which, yknow, thats fair

@Deleted User https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fathers%27_rights_movement_in_the_United_States

wikipedia i know

my point is that reform has been passed incrementally already, ive raised reasons to believe that the impetus towards this isnt going away which you dont seem to object to, theres no reason to expect that it would not continue

bills have been passed as the article shows

```n Illinois, the following laws co-authored by Jeffery M. Leving were signed into law in 2009:

SB 1628, sponsored by Senator Iris Martinez and in the House by Representative Deborah Mell, accomplished two things: It amended the Paternity Act and other Acts to insure that both parties be informed to their right to DNA testing before paternity can be adjudicated either through a voluntary acknowledgment, court proceedings or by an administrative law judge. It also amended the visitation interference section of the Criminal Code and made it a criminal offense to deny the other parent their right to parenting time or custody time. Previously, only visitation interference was a crime. (Signed into law: August 11, 2009)

SB 1590, sponsored by Sen. Pamela Althoff and in the House by Rep. Sandra Pihos, and which passed unanimously, allows children and non-custodial parents to use electronic visitation technologies such as email, telephone, internet and video conferencing. Illinois became the sixth state to pass Virtual Visitation Legislation which could enable virtual visitation for incarcerated fathers. (Signed into law: August 11, 2009)

HB 4008, sponsored by Senate by Senator Martinez and Rep. Jehan Gordon, included the paternity provisions of SB 1628. It amended the Paternity Act to ensure that both parties would be clearly informed to their right to DNA testing before a voluntary acknowledgment of paternity is signed or a paternity order is entered. (Signed into law: August 14, 2009)

HB 2266, sponsored by Martinez and Rep. Ken Dunkin, amended the visitation interference section of the Criminal Code with the use of terms used in family cases today (i.e. parenting time and custody time). (Signed into law: August 25, 2009)```

visitation was one of the issues we were discussing

you did address custody as an issue

so when i show that incremental change has been made in reforming custody / visitation...

>if i dont get everything i want then i havnt achieved anything
thats not how progress is made politically, snake, political change is implemented through incremental, realistic change

i disagree and the feminist lobby is pretty divided in whether to support equity in divorce or no

ive said repeatedly snake that the status quo should be reformed

das rite

i dont have the stats and i appreciate experience isnt a reliable indicator but people have talked to me about it and im not typically the one to bring it up and ive found that most people, including women feel theres a need to change

i think theres always an issue in making headway in divorce though, which is the same i think plagues people in getting prenups which i think is vital, and thats people dont think it will happen to them

and tbf citizens arnt concerned overwhelmingly for as above

again, not sure about that, dysfunctional marriages and breakups have always been a problem and the state hasnt caused that.

i agree and this is where feminists have actually come into bat because the laws governing this originally assumed that the man brought home the bacon and the woman enabled him and looked after the house and kids

as that responsibility is being questioned many feminists are arguing for the assumptions carried in the way divorce is carried out

and feminism isnt a monolith and i think their concerns in the regards of womens place being in the home as a neccessity was valid

hardly. there is no one "feminism" just as there isnt one "christianity" so pinning it all on "feminism" is too vague to be accurate.

eh, the vikings had pretty shitty divorce standards for men

this is a false dichotomy snake, happy families dont get divorced

and domestic violence also affects kids, more so than single parents

it isnt, but it is a reality

right but if you are in an unhappy relationship and you are forced to stay there often the result is assault

i dont on hand but i should think thats intuitive. if your stuck living with a person you hate there will likely be a punch on

and kids get to have fathers who dont hit them

@Gerçek im not predicating that assault precipitates all divorces but i dont think its unreasonable to think that if either party is forced to stay in a steadily deteriorating relationship, which you are clearly in if you are seeking a divorce, *someone* is very likely to become abusive

although i should clarify that girls are equally capable of filling that role

sure, in either case the relationship shouldnt be kept together just because of the kids because while i agree that the evidence shows that single parents are statistically less capable in providing the same outcomes for their kids, its far ahead of kids being raised in families where the environment is actively abusive

by allowing that relationship to end your cutting your losses

so snake your suggesting the more positive outcome is we allow things to deteriorate to the point that someone has to be arrested and put in prison, in which case the child is raised in a single parent home, society has to pay to imprison that parent and they are no longer productive, just so you can be happy because you dont like divorce?

@Gerçek there are already significant measures to attempt reconciliation in the divorce process, if its unsuccessful and the person is still pushing for divorce it seems unrealistic that things can be patched up

divorce is a lengthy and painful process where the person has to be pretty vehement and unco-operative towards looking at reconciliation, which also isnt really smiled on by the courts

gercek its also unrealistic that the state can force people to care about their kids if they're so trivial as to purely want a divorce because they had a bad weekend

whatever measures the state could take to cure this are likely worse than the problem its trying to treat

thats the convo from the perspective of divorce though. should people care about their kids more? yes? i think thats a different convo though

if a parent is going through a divorce proceeding without considering the kids clearly they consider themselves as seperate and i cant force my view onto them. I cant force people to be good parents and if they are determined in getting out i dont see any point in keeping a bad parent who hates being with their kids in that situation.

gamers rise up\

i dont think its cost effective to try and pay people out to love their children and their are already significant financial incentives for marriage and kids

which we agree on

and certainly people should be less slutty gercek

i think by reforming divorce to be more equitable and a bit of a cultural swing as things normalise thats 90% of the way there