If I've got some cognitive dissonance you most certainly do too, by sticking up for those values

Except I didn't

anyhow

brb for like 30 seconds

You should quote me where I defended that

You argue like every other leftist, lol, even if you were not a leftist, you nonetheless think like one

The leftist has a black and white view of the world, and therefore, shape the image of their opponents into unrealistic caricatures.

which, ironically enough, results in the same happening to you

I mean, you proclaimed "Values is the incorrect term, the correct wording should be self pride", in a discussion of whether europeans should stick to their values or not

so there was most certainly at least implied, if not outright support, for europeans having pride

"They should be proud to be European"

is a far cry from "They should be proud that their ancestors kills and pillaged"

Total misrepresentation

Why should one be proud to be European?

You show no charity, I show you none

Our discussion, actually

Was about the tragedies committed by europeans

For the same reason a Chinaman should be proud of being Chinese

about how european power rests upon a throne of corpses

yes, I disagree with that

Well then I think you're wrong

I don't think Chinese people should pride themselves in their ethnicity.

They absolutely should

Why do you have that opinion?

Why?

Jews should to

Why should they be proud>

Why?

How about let me answer the question

Nah, I did the same thing to you earlier

you can

so it's okay

I'm not preventing you

I'll show the courtesy of not mocking your responses

by proclaiming 'muh nationalism' and 'muh skin color'

then dismissing them outright, or using whataboutisms to distract from the horrors which occurred

They should be proud of being who they are because self hatred leads to the same situation Europe is in now:

Total decadence, a lack of concern about the future, and outright hatred of your own which is replaced by a preference for foreigners who do not care about their nations as much as they will and will always see themselves as part of a different group except for some fringe cases @SilverLining

Jews should do this, too
Muslims should do this,

Everyone should do this

but yeah, if you can explain why a german should take pride in being "german", a vague notion which has meant countless things historically, then go ahead

A nation that does not respect itself will not last

>total decadence

how?

>a lack of concern about the future

Because that's why university students are turning out in droves as activists

>outright hatred of your own which is replaced by a preference for foreigners

1. What's wrong with foreigners?

>They are turning out in droves as activists

No, I used to be one of these types of people, let me explain something about these "activists"

2. How many people actively "hate their own"

well, I can answer that, it's near to zero

These "activists" are not out there to make a difference, and 75% of people who claim that are lying through their fucking teeth

whatever you say

Because I guess my experiences in leftist circles

seeing people actively fight for what they believe in

They're there for moral and social points, which is why they protest and rally around the dumbest fucking shit

for what they believe needs to be done

And go after targets that make no sense

is just "virtue signalling"

Razor.

I don't believe you. You're clearly a biased source. I'd assume you don't believe my experiences, either

Also, who are you to judge?

I've rarely met an "environmental activist" in my personal life who lived up to their own standards

you don't claim that they don't know what they're fighting for

just that they're "lying"

which you clearly wouldn't be able to tell

"What's wrong with foreigners"

Do you think a white man in China will consider himself Chinese?

Do you think his children will consider themselves Chinese?

Does it matter?

No.

hahahahaha

You've yet to prove why the vague notion of a national identity matters

and actually, yes

"Why does it matter if you have people in your country that don't identify with it"

given enough time, and acceptance by the government

they would

oh fuck, you're right

Exile all dissidents

my bad

sure, you might be born here, but you don't truly love our nation

Hell, I'm a natural born, pasty, white American, I don't really identify as American. I accept I was born here, I feel no loyalty towards America

You like to say a lot of bullshit without giving anyone time to explain, so instead you just argue what you perceive to be their position for them and then have an argument with yourself

I'm loyal to my ideals

also

Should you continue, I will simply not respond

Why should people be loyal to nations?

I'm pointing out how your argument makes no sense when taken to its logical conslusion

Unless you're just arguing that xenophobia is a good thing

Except you haven't, you introduce a new point and then argue against my perceived response, and when I respond, you're already halfway through arguing with yourself, so now I have to repeat that again, rinse and repeat

Seems like my characterization of you was ironically correct

Go ahead and answer why one should be loyal to nations, then

I'll wait.

but I don't really see how

You view the world in black and white where there can only be your position or a different one

Bad wording ^

on my part

*There can only be your position or an "evil" one

That's not true at all

See, what you said

It clearly is

implied that a nation should only consist of those who "identify" with it

False

false

\

many domestic citizens don't "identify" with said nation

false

false

false

True.

false

false

false

okay

I didn't say that

What did you intend to imply, then?

"Why does it matter if you have people in your country that don't identify with it"

seems to imply that countries should only harbor those who identify with it

I said you should not invite foreigners as they usually do not identify with your nation

There will always be some of your own people who do not identify with your nation, and that's fine,but does that mean you should add to that number?

Let's say

you have 100 million people in Bullshitland

your original comment didn't even remotely seem to imply that

you can presumably understand where my opinion came from

It didn't imply that, because you never asked me about it

Instead of asking what my position was

"Well then, what about your own people who hate your country?"

for exa,ple

You, again

As I have said before

Argued with yourself about something I never said

I never even addressed it

your original comment seemed to imply dissidents were bad, not belonging in a nation

I'm not going to apologize for your poor wording

They are bad

Anyhow

No, that's right they ARE bad

What about people who hate their domestic country?

and why?

But they don't have to be deported or murdered

They can stay

Those two things aren't contradictory

Why are they "bad"?

Have we established what my position is first before you argue with the voices in your head?

nice ad-hom

anyhow, answer my question.

I'm waiting.

It's not an ad-hom, because I did not use it in place of an argument

attack on my character, regardless

Yes, but it wasn't an argument

So

Do you intend to answer my question?

Yes

If you intend to state my position so that I don't have to address a strawman again and we getit straightened out now

go ahead

I've been waiting.

I wanted you to state it, but it doesn't look like you're going to

So it's find

*fine

I'll do it myself

Having foreigners be dissidents within your country is not the same as having your own people be dissidents

Both are bad

who pinged me

That's not the question I asked.

Alright, well then I'll answer yours

Why is it bad?

@SilverLining hello

@The Big Oof

What is the QOTD

To put it simply:

It's bad because a fractured nation will not stand, for one.

Since you're pretty materialistic, we can explain it like this:

What if you're a nation like China, and your country splits apart?

You're no longer a superpower, and are far less capable of defending your now broken up country from outside nations that seek to take it by force. @SilverLining

Nations with large regions of people that don't care about the rest of the country tend to have those regions break away

in short

razorlaze, what are you two debating?

it started here @Snakeisninja

this is when I entered

You mean define cosmopolitan?

No

What I'm asking

is why must national loyalty triumph over all?

Im sry I got here late

@SilverLining It shouldn't.

PLOT TWIST

Define what you mean by triumph @SilverLining

That's a different question than "is it good"

Snake betrays razor haha

If your nation starts killing its people, for example, then it's okay not to align with it, lol

What if you nation stops killing people?

why must it dominate all other loyalties?

I think THAT'S when I'd overthrow it for being inept

It shouldnt

You're using vague terms here

what if its other policies are objectionable?

not really

I am interested to hear razor's reasoning

Your original question

Was

"Why is having dissidents and disloyal people bad?"

lol

hmmmmmmmmmmm

I wonder

That is a different question @SilverLining

You're asking me different things

right, and that's the first in a string of questions

you said it's bad because it underlines national unity

because it harms the nation

Group cohesion to be more general

I'm questioning why "the nation" should lie above every other loyalty

It shouldn't

Exactly

The nation can actively work against an individual

Ah, but now we're delving into individual vs collective

If I'm an 18th century factory worker, you bet I'm going to be a dissident

So you'll lose me as an ally here

oh, not that entirely

I can get some group loyalties

I just don't view "the nation" as the highest loyalty

as the nation can oppose an individual's beliefs

I had a similar discussion earlier in the chat text channel

@SilverLining The nation is the highest loyalty if your nation is a nation-state

okay, the state

my bad

Assuming, you know

it doesn't kill them

Simply put groups are a strategy in which multiple organisms (often with shared genes) cooperate to compete with other groups and organisms. The most successful groups have rules for how group members should interact with each other and when a member breaks the rules the group condemns the rule breaker because he is undermining group cohesion

Even then, you can argue that the real discontent arises with the government

not the nation

By the same logic if a member seeks to undermine the group itself then other members should condemn the rebel for undermining group cohesion

Being loyal to China isn't the same as being loyal to the Communist Party.

oh

this is an even worse point, razor

Mexicans are loyal to neither the United States or the United States Government

Right, so I'm an American

Should I be loyal to other ethnic Americans?

eh, too vague

Supposing I'm a German

should I be loyal to other ethnic germans?

Yes, you should prefer Germans to other people.

However this only applies to groups that are advantageous for the members. If membership is disadvantageous then the benefits of undermining group cohesion may be worth the costs

okay

so

why should I?

Ah now that takes us back to ideals and first principles

Fun stuff

To ensure your nation's longevity

Going back to the American point

Please don't

Are you a nihilist out of curiousity?

can we just presume Americans are a single ethnicity?

Moth

yes @Snakeisninja

Eh, not really

How would you describe yourself philosophically

I'm a utilitarian

Well that's where the disagreement lies.

I am not and I assume razor isnt either