that itself is needing a hierarchy to enforce anti hierarchy

It would be prudent to first start with an evaluation of neo-positivist objectifications of "natural law" and how they reproduce the given state of affairs, disguising social opposition as immutable and creating a one-dimensional system of thought and confirmation of thought.

capitalism is a voluntary institution

you can be a fucking commie or a anarchist or an anarcho syndicalist if you like

Can we kinda stick to a more coherent conversation? It's very difficult to keep up with 2+ people spewing their thoughts without any structure. It's not a constructive form of communication.

you can start with indigo

i need to take a shower

Okay, then indigo, can you respond to my lead in?

if you're interested in discussing hierarchy and "naturalness"

you can make a company with whatever system you like, whether it be anarcho syndicalist or communist in a capitalism.

The opposite is not true in those leftist utopias.

that's not engaging with anything I've said.

It's ideological ranting that has little to do with the topic at hand, and I can't really respond to.

hence liberty and leftism are oxymorons

"liberty" as a concept has been destroyed in the real discourse of capitalism. All emancipatory dimensions of the concept have been repressed and the meaning has been reduced to a reflection of behavioralism and operational definitions/instances.

The inherent contradictions of, for instance, American liberty and a *true* liberty may be masked, but can be critically determined.

Liberty would imply freedom, individual emancipation, and the furthering of a historical project of humanism. At the very least: satisfaction of material needs and the development of real needs beyond those.

This is impossible in the operational logic of capitalism, in which repression must be furthered (even when it is named liberty) to satisfy particular interests and the creation of surplus value.

so do you agree that there is no libertarianism or freedom or whatever in leftism.

You cannot take a discussion of liberty down to black and white. This sort of abridgment stunts any contemplation.

There is no *true* liberty in capitalist society. True liberty can only be achieved in a society that has transcended, at the first, the capitalist mode of production.

Only if there isn't ANY liberty in leftism

Actually existing socialisms (which I assume you refer to? Such as the USSR?) have also failed to transcend the capitalist mode of production and failed to result in human liberty and emancipation.

How does a supposedly 'human' ideology like communism result in less freedoms than capitalism?

I wonder why

Capitalism has produced a wealthy and successful society. People are lifted out of poverty, disease, and work less. Some degree of work is necessary to produce resources for survival, and capitalism results in much more liberty than individual emancipation than other systems. Structure and hierarchy keeps people stable and able to develop social systems and technology to improve liberty.

I feel somehow like my messages are not being read.

Or maybe understood.

The communists are ridiculous. They do believe in their own bullshit

Because we're communicating on two completely different conversations right now.

I've already criticized actually-existing-socialisms. Your question is redundant...and still no real engagement with anything I've said.

so you do agree that socialism results is far lower freedom than capitalism

Do I agree that actually existing socialisms of the past have been repressive?
yes.
Do I believe that capitalism is also repressive?
yes.
Did/does liberty exist in either?
no.

Does freedom exist in capitalism?
no.

You didn't answer

Because it's a nonsensical question with at least two undefined terms

Because you're extremely positivst and ideological, I can only assume that by "socialism" you mean your interpretation of actually existing socialisms? And freedom is completely undefined. I would give it the same treatment I just gave liberty, but that was completely ignored.

*farts for 40 seconds on lolo's head* this is how you sound

I already proved to you that any kind of liberty whatsoever in lefism is an oxymoron.

That includes anarcho syndicalists, left libertarians and communists

If this is the level of discourse that is fostered here, I can find more interesting people to talk to.

You haven't proved anything.

These people are kids that think they are smart.